Open Throat, or open Backbore?

[MountVernon]

Hi, I’m looking for subtle change(s) on my current mouthpiece, and I’m wondering if the change I’m after is in the throat, the backbore, or both.

Here is what I’m after:

1. Allow more air to be poured through, with less resistance.
2. Sounds in Forte/FF not being too bright, or too edgy.
3. Sound being slightly less forward, and more omni-directional.
4. Keeping the majority of focus in the sound without it spreading or becoming airy.

I am aware that it may not be possible the meet all of this criteria, but i'm hoping someone can guide me in the right direction to get closer to my end goal.

thank you.

[Richard III]

What mouthpiece are you talking about?
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[MountVernon]

[Andy Cooper]

[MountVernon]

Based off of a Bach 5V. Has a shorter shank, slightly tighter throat & slightly tighter backbore.

[Andy Cooper]

[MountVernon]

Not sure, it’s tighter. It feels about 2 sizes smaller, so maybe a 23.

It’s a frost

[JayKosta]

[MountVernon]

No. I need some guidance with mouthpiece adjustments, not an embouchure “adjustment”.

[lipshurt]

Those are not Bach backbore numbers. Bach don’t go is sequence like that.

It’s hard to answer the question because sometimes it’s not as intuitive.

Sometimes one throat size makes a pretty big difference, sometimes not.

The difference between backbore sizes can be really quite drastic. It takes more difference to feel a difference.

Often times the same tapered reamer is used to make a few diferent backbore sizes, just by changing the distance the reamer is inserted into the backbore. When you do it that way, one of the main things you are doing is changing the throat length. The change in throat length has at least as much effect as the change in backbore size.

Opening the throat doesn’t change the sound very much unless it’s a lot of change. It does change the feel of the airflow.

A bigger backbore does a lot of things, usually warmer sound, more flexible, less slotted, definite change in articulation response either better or worse. There is a sweet spot with backbore size where too big gets worse in most aspects except maybe for basic sound. The backbore should generally be bigger for cups with more cup volume, and smaller for smaller/shallow cups. You can warm up the sound of a shallow cup with a big backbore, but other things like intonation and articulation and stability can get worse.

Let’s say you keep the same cup and go from a 28 throat to a 27, but counteract that by inserting the backbore reamer 1/16th less insertion. That makes the backbore smaller and the throat longer. The result is GENERALLY for most people going feel the same in airflow, but be more slotted and less flexible. But not drastically because the changes are pretty small. If you had two mouthpieces like that, you would find that one of them might work better in different horns. So in your Bach you would use this one and in your Yamaha Z you would use the other one.

It takes quite a bit of experimentation to get a real handle on things and most people never have access to all those kinds of variation, so it’s kind of like lucking up on a good formula. Having said that, the elephant in the room is that even if you formula might not be the ultimate best, by far the most powerful variable is YOU getting used to setup, and basically learning subconsciously the realities of playing that setup day in/day out through all kinds of days when you are fresh/beat up/sick with a cold/in shape/out of shape/playing hard gig/playing easy gig/morning/night/etc.

Whatever you learn will turn into what works best for you unless you are using some kind of drastic setup that worked best when you tried stuff for a few minutes one time. So there is a reason that “normal” setups, or “conventional wisdom” setups exist. What works for most people should be a guide that tells you when you are getting into extreme territory which could work for you or you could be fooling yourself too.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Andy Cooper]

[MountVernon]

Thank you! This is very helpful!

[MountVernon]

[Daniel Barenboim]

Yes



DB

[Andy Cooper]

Knowing what mouthpiece you actually play would be a big help. In looking over your past posts it would seem that you are using a Frost 5 or 6 TF - trumpet flugelhorn mouthpiece. It might be the TC model, but since you said the cup was like a Bach 5V - the TF would be closer.

Here is the Curry TF in 3C size compared to a Bach 5V. The Frost is probably similar

https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html?mpc1id=VA4580002&mpc2id=VB005700&backcolor=blue

It should be marked on the mouthpiece - something like 5TF or 6TF.

The Frost TF would have a proprietary backbore matched up with a throat size appropriate to the cup. (I don't see how he managed to get a Flugel cup to play with a #28 throat.)

The Backbore is shorter since with a cup that deep, the horn would play flat with a standard length backbore.

If this is the mouthpiece, it was designed to play the way it does. You would need to contact Frost to modify it but it would be hard to say what it would play like after modification.

If you want a different sound why not try something like a Bach 6. Nice medium dark, focused sound with a lot of core. You can bore the throats out on a Bach with out doing much damage. It would also not be a big deal to have one cut and threaded for backbores.

[MrOlds]

Matt Frost knows lots about backbores. If his thesis doesn’t answer your questions you could send him an email asking for his recommendation.

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/handle/1773/25455

[Louise Finch]

[Louise Finch]

[Andy Del]

[TKSop]

So, if I'm reading your opening post correctly, it's the sensation of air movement you're primarily after - ie: more of a blow-through rather than blow-into kind of deal?

That would indeed seem to point to a bigger throat - but it's not really as simple as *just* opening up the throat a few sizes...
Just one you might get away with, but that's not going to give a drastic change in sensation, which I sense you're after - any more than that and you're going to need to do something else to balance out the change in intonation that making the throat longer will result in. That means either making the backbore bigger (by running the reamer in further) or shortening the backbore and shank (the basic Monette style piece).

Which of those would work best? You probably wouldn't know without trying both.


After that, I'm with Andy Del above - you're getting into contradictions a little bit, IMHO... Besides, you probably want to get one thing right before shooting for the next (assuming you need to!).