1953 Conn 22b vs 1958 Conn Victor

[veum]

How might I expect these horns to play differently? I've got a '53 22b and have got a line on a '58 Victor. How close are they in playing characteristics?

Thanks!

Bill

[Brassnose]

I don’t know anything about the 22B but you’ll need to specify the „Victor“ — I’m under the impression that there are Victors with all sorts of model names. For example my late model 6B is also a Victor.
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[nieuwguyski]

In 1958 Conn was making the 6B and 10B Victor trumpets (as well as the 6A and 10A Victor cornets, which look almost identical).
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[Andy Cooper]

Does the 1958 look like this?
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn22B1961image.html
This would have been after the transition to the valve casing that looks like the Conn 38B Connstellation.

I had one of the latter style. If you are looking for a deep dark smokey sound - this is not the trumpet for you.

I loved it - it was like a hammer on a anvil. Clean attacks, a pure, brilliant sound - not a bright sound with a lot of random highs - but very clear. It will still have the same bottom sprung valves.

[veum]

Hey Andy - It looks like a cross between the '61 and the '55. Got the bottom caps of this one: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn22B1955image.html but in brass with an adjustable 3rd valve slide ring.

[Richard III]

I have an early 50's and early 60's 22B. Totally different horns except for the bore size. The later one has much thicker metal, the early one being quite the lighter horn. Which is better? Depends on what you like. The sound is similar, but the later one definitely has more presence and more secure slots. But, all of this can also be explained by the later one having better valve compression. Vintage horns can make you think you know something, but really it's something else.

Every time I pull out the early one, I think it's my favorite, but eventually I'm back to the later one. Great valves. I'm partial to bottom sprung valves.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[lipshurt]

I have had quite a few 22b’s and there was a lot of variety in design depending on the generation. There were at least three generations.

Mine were all between 1927 and 1956 or so.
Bell thickness on the early ones from the late 1920’s was pretty light and the valve casings were also lightweight. These first generation 22b were what many people think were the best. Malcom mcnab played one for a time people say. They are easier to play soft. The lead pipe on the 22b has no “ledge” where the receiver meets the lead pipe. It blends smoothly. The lead pipe flares out on the small end to meet the receiver. On the first generation the flared section is about 3/16th of an inch long. An outer tube slides over the small end of the pipe and the receiver slide into that tube and the three pieces are soldered together. The worst part of buying any 22b is the fact that when they solder those three piece together, acit soldering flux is trapped between the outer tube and the lead pipe and the acid eats the brass and ruins the pipe. It looks like red rot but it’s from acid. If you but 15 22b’s looking for a good clear pipe you will be pretty disappointed. Most are rotted right there, and they play awful that way. I got maybe three good pipes out of 15, and it did not matter how good of shape the basic horn was in. Some of the best pipes were on just looking 200 dollar horns. I put the best pipes on the best horns.


The second generation, which starts about 1937 had very thick bells and those bells sounded great when you played loud. Clear and bright and thick with reverb almost built into the sound. Sounded great on recordings. Not as easy to play ppp as first generation. The valve blocks on 2nd gen were bottom sprung with a very good valve guide system that was super quiet and had almost zero radial (twist) play. The valve Block is longer to hold the bottom spring so the block is quite a bit heavier. Those blocks sound great loud. Super solid with the thick bell. Now here is a weird thing about generation 2. All the ones i had which is at least 10, had great compression on valve 2 and 3 but looser compression in valve 1. Even horns that were like “new old stock” and barely played. On a couple of them i send to Anderson’s to have valve rebuilds, and they never played as good with all three valves tight. Could be because the thick bell and heavy block made everything to slotted. It also could be that since these were used mainly during the swing era, players needed or want horns that could bend a little bit more while still being solid and dense and bright when playing loud. The next major change for generation 2 was that the end of the lead pipe was flared over a longer stretch to meet the receiver. The flare is about 3/8 inch long. It also means that the smallest part or “Venturi” is a few thousandths bigger. The 2nd generation plays pretty Big. You would never think its a 438 bore. A “good” one is pretty amazing. I have or had a 1942 or so (maybe 1945) 22b that has a very lightweight bell. Drastically. I did not really like it, but was somewhat easier to play soft. I would say the only thing not good about the heavy 22b is its hard to play ppp at least for me they were.

The 3rd generation is about 1953 and later. The valve block is much lighter and so is the bell. The Venturi is more like the 1st generation with a 3/16 or 1/8 in flare. That pipe when put on the heavier 2nd gen actually is an improvement except that it makes the horn feel smaller, but good for playing soft. To me the 3rd gen did not have the smack and dominating sound of the 2nd generation.

Still the main takeaway from all of this is it’s really hard to get one with a good pipe. I did experiment with using other pipes. Every pipe fro another brand was just horribly out of tune cuz they’re not meant for a 438 bore. The pipe that did work though were conn pipes that went with 438 bores. Same taper of pipe. Constellation pipes work good but they have the ‘Ledge” and the verturi is quite a bit smaller cuz there is no flared section. They play good but feel smaller. I shaved out some material with a special made reamer to make it be like the 22 and it actually worked good. Connstellation are not that easy find either though. Any three piece pipe from a 438 bore will be fine on a 22b including from a student line director, 8b artist or (maybe) 77b conquest. Not sure about the conquest actually.

So there is some info that usually you can’t find on the internet:)
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Andy Cooper]

Both advertise 38B leadpipes if this helps. I don't know how they fit or play.

https://www.omalleyhorns.com/collections/tubing

https://dqscustomshop.com/del-quadro-custom-trumpets/custom-leadpipes/

[Mac Gollehon]

Over the years I’ve played and owned every generation of 22B from 1925-1952. Also Connstellation from 1955-1970. I’ve also had some great playing Voca bell horns from 1932-1935. Some of these horns were effortless players with consistently outstanding tonal characteristics. The Coprion bell 10B Victor with nickel pipe and the Coprion Special from early 1940s were standouts deserving another category of exceptional. All of these elements must be considered in accordance to condition of the instrument of course. In my opinion Conn and Selmer in those times (1925-1965)were a tour de force.

[Halflip]

[Manuel de los Campos]

My experience with Conn 22b started with the buy of a 'wrong' 22B, the latest version, the student trumpet. Although hated by everyone over here it was quite a good horn. Later I could lay my hands on a mid 50's 22B Victor and this was a very good horn. Great valves, great sound, played way more easy than my Vincent Bach 180/37.
The 1927 22B NYS was a looker, stunning but played not as easy as the Victor. I let her go and found another 22B NYS.
The 1924 NYS played as easy as the Victor but sounds somewhat brighter.
I sold both the 1927 NYS as well as the 22B Victor, the latter I do regret...
Non of my 22B trumpets had any sign of red rot or other corrosion. I think they where all well made, they all are great players and can stand the competition to many modern made trumpets with ease
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)

[Jimbosan]

It was interesting to hear what others think about the various versions of the 22b. I have a 1947 model that is raw brass, but in very good condition. The brass is thick. It's heavy at 38.9 oz. (My Buescher 205 weighs even more at 39.69 oz.) I have four medium bore trumpets and the 22b plays more open than any of them. The bottom sprung valves are a little more hassle to oil, but they seem to stay aligned. It's one of my favorite horns to play. Very nice core. I tried a friends' 8b Victor once, but that's a totally different thing.
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