Endurance question?

[gholbrook]

Amateur trumpet player here. Play on Sunday mornings in church. Practice an hour most days doing Clarke Studies and long tones. Rest as much as I play and at the end of the practice session I can still go up to a high C without difficulty.

Rest as much as you play falls apart for me when on a hymn the organist would really like me to play on 5 straight verses without a rest. The music is not particularly difficult but the length is. 16 measures is easy, after 32 measures I am starting to feel it. 48 measures are an adventure and 64 measures is impossible.

Most of what I read on increasing endurance doesn't really seem to address this. I can keep practicing and this just doesn't get better. Any thoughts on how or if possible for me to lengthen how long I can play without a rest? After the hymn I will have plenty of time to rest.

[Andy Cooper]

Before we all get into equipment , Isometric exercises etc., let's talk about the art of negotiation.

[Richard III]

So you practice for one hour and take rests during that time? Do you feel the need to rest during that hour? Does your technique start to deteriorate? What prompts the rest?
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[abontrumpet]

5 straight is tough for anybody, especially if having to play over the organ.

To be able to play longer (consecutively), you have to practice playing longer and easier. As you say, you "feel it" starting at 32 measures. What I would do is Day 1: play 24 measures, rest a minute, then play 24 measure, rest, 24 measures. That gives you 72 measures. Then take 5 minutes off and do it again. Day 2: then reduce the rest: 24 measures, 30 second rest, 24 measures, rest, 24 measures. Etc.

Assuming your chops are fine and you're playing efficiently, this is the way to increase the time. Don't let the chops get tired in a practice session (also do not go into your Sunday "tired" but rather take a light day the day before).

The better option is to simply not play for one of those verses, unless you're getting paid the big bucks ($100+ a service). If you're playing for free, then certainly take verses off.

[Dayton]

Take an easy etude, such as one of the Getchell or Hering etudes and play the first eight measures. Then, without taking a break, go back to the beginning and play the first twelve measures. Then, without taking a break, go back to the beginning and play the first sixteen, and so on until you finish the etude or need to rest.

"Need to rest" means after your chops begin to feel tired but before you lose good playing form.

Good luck!

[gholbrook]

Thanks for the feedback

Couple of responses:
I rest because I am supposed to rest as much as I play. Throughout the practice session my lips don't hurt and I like my tone.

Equipment (just for reference since I am presuming that I am the equipment that needs the work) : Bach Strad and Bach 3C

Definitely not getting paid and will probably need to negotiate but I would like to get to the point I can do it.

[abontrumpet]

[JayKosta]

Do you feel the need to play louder to be in balance with the organ?
How does the organ loudness balance with the choir, and others who are singing?

Don't get shackled by 'rest as much as you play' - certainly rest enough to make the playing time worthwhile, but no need to be controlled by a clock.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[homebilly]

pull the Nancy Reagan card and
'just say NO'
_________________
ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com

[Dayton]

Separate from the issue of how to build your endurance is establishing realistic expectations on the part of the music director. A good/experienced one understands that a brass instrument is not the same as a piano or clarinet, and also understands the differences between a professional and a volunteer. The MD should adjust accordingly.

You and the MD both have an interest in the music sounding great. Suggest that you tacet verses 2 & 4 or something like that.

[Richard III]

Is there a reason you are not practicing what you play on Sunday to replicate the level of endurance required?
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[falado]

Hi, it sounds like the organist hasn’t worked with many brass players or once work with someone with an iron lip. You might talk to the organist a plead your case that you can not play every verse and must rest. I play in church a lot, played this last Sunday. The music minister actually had trumpet parts for the hymns. The parts had rests built in, ah written with brass in mind. Anyway, what I usually do is play the 1st and last verse if there are 3. If there are 5 then verse 1, 3, and 5. But, talk with the organist, have a conversation. If the organist is not reasonable I might pass on playing until I have the chops. Or, say ok, but it will be $100 per verse (ok, I was kidding).

Here is something I sometimes tell non brass playing musicians. Take a 5lb weight and hold it strait out without letting your arm bend or dropping the weight for every verse while I’m playing. That’s what the continuous playing is like and that’s why there are a lot of rests in brass parts, unless you are HerbertL. Clarke.
Just some thoughts, Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[Andy Cooper]

[JetJaguar]

Lay out a verse or two. Organists and choir directors often don't get instruments. One time I was asked to play a trumpet solo at a large church. I had never met the choir director. I had been emailed the music. So I show up to the rehearsal and get ready to play. Music in front of me. The choir director makes his way into the room. Doesn't say a word to me much less introduce himself or announce which tune they were going to rehearse first. My part started like 16 bars into the piece. I had never heard what the beginning of the piece sounded like. This was before everything was on Youtube. He sat at the piano and just started playing, and the choir somehow knew what tune to sing. It turned out they were singing the tune I was to play on. It all worked out though.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

[homebilly]

put the 5lb weight on her/his/their/them/its/they bass pedals
_________________
ron meza (deadbeat jazz musician) & (TH 5 post ghost neighborhood watch ringleader)
waiting for Fed-Ex to deliver a $50 trumpet to my door. shipping was prepaid by seller of course!
http://ronmeza.com
http://highdefinitionbigband.com

[jkarnes0661]

+1 to just telling the organist that 5 verses in a row isn't practical for trumpet. I play for 30-40 church services and catholic masses a year with a dozen different organists and we always take at least one verse off.

John Ferguson is a (now retired) organist from St. Olaf college who's done numerous brass/organ arrangements of common hymns. I had the opportunity to meet him when I was hired to play for a worship symposium and during our conversation he mentioned that he purposely did 2-3 setting brass arrangements of hymns because he knew the brass would need at least one verse of rest. He's well known in the organist world and frequently worked with professional brass players so you could mention his name to this organist and mention that his arrangements always took at least one verse off.
_________________
Jonathan Karnes
Grand Rapids, MI
jonathankarnes.com

[gholbrook]

"Rest as much as you play is a good rule of thumb. But in this case, if you never run 10 miles, running 20 miles is going to be a bad time. Or more precisely, if for every mile you run you walk a mile, then it's going to be hard to really get in the flow of running continuously for many miles.

For the purposes of specificity in training, you must deviate from "rules of thumb" and do the necessary things."

This is what I had suspected but I also presumed that all of those people saying rest as much as you play know more than I do. Started practicing as you suggested but with the piece I am working on. Will see how it goes. Yes, will probably need to talk with the organist but I would like to be able to do it all. May not be practical.

Fortunately, the church only holds about 200 people and is quite live so I don't need to really work to get the volume up over everything else.

[falado]

Hi again, not playing on every verse gives the hymn some variety. Also, if you search you may find some of the hymns you are doing have been arranged and will have little fanfare incidental trumpet and descant parts. Those can be fun. I played one like that last week. You may have to change the key to suit the arrangement the choir is doing. But again, it adds some variety to the hymn. I like this better than just playing melody in unison with the choir. If you look, you will find lots of material and some are free. My trumpet professor even says to add or write descant parts. Of course as long as you don’t interfere with the hymn. After all, you are accompaniment.
Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[Andy Cooper]

There is a lot of material out there - I found this an interesting read.

http://www.hsutrumpets.com/endurance/

[mike ansberry]

As many have said, 5 verses is unreasonable. At my church we usually do brass on every other verse. But then at Easter, we have a quartet in the entrance to the church, playing as people come in. We play hymns without organ accompaniment. It used to tax me to the end of my ability.

This is my standard reply to building endurance questions: I struggled with endurance problems for decades. Then I stumbled upon Rusty Russell's 19/30s exercise. From this I learned to play with a more relaxed embouchure. It was a big help. Then I found Balanced Embouchure (BE). I worked the BE method for several years. It is not so much a method as it is a collection of exercises that lead you to find the embouchure that works best for you. It has made a huge difference in my playing ability.
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.