Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:25 pm Post subject: Its flugelhorn an useful instrument?
Hi everybody, lately that question came to mind because i have noticed that many of the great soloist players such as Wynton Marsalis, Chris Botti, Miles Davis (i know he used it for short period but then he top to use it) etc, they can achive a very mellow tone just using their trumpets on the other hand many top players play the flugelhorn with a bright tone and with strong articulaltion for insance Roy Campbell, also i have noticed that if you learn to play the flugelhorn properly with a mellow tone ( i know the timbre required for flugelhorn varies among different genres, but its always supose to be mellower than trumpet), the same soft aproach works to make the trumpet sound more mellow almost like a flugelhorn, i know that physically and in terms of response trumpet and flugelhorn are different, im not by any means a professional player, i would like to know your opinion on this topic, thanks in advances.
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:29 pm Post subject:
I think it is. A mellow trumpet sound is not a flugelhorn sound, and I've never heard a trumpeter and mistook his tone for that of a flugelhorn. They are distinctly different.
The question, really, is what sound are you trying to achieve? If you want a mellow trumpet sound, then learn to play with a mellow trumpet sound. If you want a flugelhorn sound, then get a flugelhorn and have at it. They are quite fun to play and can sound absolutely gorgeous.
If you don't have the money right yet, go for something like a Curry TF cup or a Reeves C2J cup. Those are hybrid cups designed to bring more of a flugelhorn quality to a trumpet.
I have 14 in my collection, so I guess they're useful to me. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:07 pm Post subject:
This is the reason I bought a flugelhorn. Years before I had one and never found a use for it. Then I met this guy, took a lesson and really want to make it work. I bought a new flugelhorn and loved the sound. I wanted to just play that horn. Sadly, I still never got it together.
In northwestern Europe (particularly Germany and the Benelux) there's an ensembe setting known as a 'fanfare orchestra'. It's simlar to a brassband but instead of cornets, flugelhorns are used. It creates a very different style than could be achieved by either trumpets or cornets. If you'd hear the top flugel players in those ensembles play their instrument, you'd agree that the same effect cannot be achieved using a trumpet (recently had the privilige of one of those players demonstrating upper register playing on an Adams flugel...an octave above the staff at fortissimo, and it still sounded mellow). And in general in classical music, there's no way the trumpet can replace the flugelhorn's sound. Just listen to a recording of Helen Williams for example, and you'll probably agree that a trumpet cannot match that.
But it is true that, with the proper setup and the right approach, a cornet and a trumpet can be used to create a similar effect in jazz as the flugelhorn. It's not really the same but a good player can convey the same effect if the chose to do so.
Personally, I've experienced my flugel projects much better with a deep V mouthpiece than my trumpet, if played the same way. It's also possible to take a shallow mouthpiece on a flugel and get a really bright sound...but it's just not the same sound as a lead trumpet, even if it makes playing high almost as easy.
So yeah, I agree in some settings you can get a similar feel, and maybe even a somewhat similar sound, but when played properly in a live setting, the instruments are distinctly different in sound. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
You can buy a big-bell trumpet. You can pair it with a deep mouthpiece. If you know how to play it well you will indeed get a mellower sound than you'd get on a smaller-belled trumpet with a shallower mouthpiece. And you could change how you approach your attacks and other characteristics of your playing to make it sound even more like a flugelhorn. That's not easy. [And, I'd suggest that you'd still fall somewhat short.]
That's why many great artists who can do practically anything with a trumpet still play a flugelhorn. They don't want to have to work hard (during a performance) to get the sound they want.
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1550 Location: Virginia USA
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:59 am Post subject:
Useful?
They are so much fun to play.
They are great for blending with reeds.
Great sound and great playing feel.
People love the sound. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 12:07 pm Post subject:
I put a quartet together once for a Christmas program with a trombone and two euphoniums. I played the flugelhorn, which blended perfectly with the euphoniums. Flugelhorn, at least as far as the air column shape is concerned, is really a soprano euphonium. When played in a classical style (e.g., brass band) it can sound very euphonium-ish.
While I can play it somewhat well in a classical style, It's really my preferred instrument for jazz soloing, especially ballads and bebop. I find it to be more nimble and more forgiving than the trumpet. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
I think it is. A mellow trumpet sound is not a flugelhorn sound, and I've never heard a trumpeter and mistook his tone for that of a flugelhorn. They are distinctly different.
The question, really, is what sound are you trying to achieve? If you want a mellow trumpet sound, then learn to play with a mellow trumpet sound. If you want a flugelhorn sound, then get a flugelhorn and have at it. They are quite fun to play and can sound absolutely gorgeous.
If you don't have the money right yet, go for something like a Curry TF cup or a Reeves C2J cup. Those are hybrid cups designed to bring more of a flugelhorn quality to a trumpet.
Thanks a lot for all your valuable answers, most of you are way way better players than i am and also have a lot of experience playing at a very high level , but when i ask if the flugelhorn is an useful instrument i mean that at the end of the day mainly in jazz ballads the soft sound comes mainly from the interpretation and the taste of the player not just from the instrument and with a good trumpet technique you can sound almost like a flugelhorn just playing a trumpet and if you dont have the appropiate interpretation and taste you are going to soud kind of trumpety even using the darkest flugelhorn and a very deep mouthpiece.
For instance this great player called Oliver Baron, he plays almost exclusively flugelhorn but when he performs with a trumpet he sounds almost like a flugel, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-37He37Yw0
If you like flugelhorns, you should check out the link below. It’s a collection of flugels, alto flugels, tenor flugels, and bass flugels sounding great
On a more serious note, I like flugel for certain things, like playing with a choir, with woodwinds, or in smaller venues. It’s also nice as a color in basically any setting from combo to orchestra and rock band.
We do have someone in the orchestra who exclusively plays flugel while I predominantly play my rotary and this makes for a nice match with me on first and him on second.
So, a flugel is „useful“ but I cannot see myself switching to flugel as a main instrument - have to admit that I spend much more time on Bb and C than on flugel. But that’s only me, there are plenty of folks playing flugel as their main horn, just think about all those German/Czech/Bohemian/whatnot brass bands. Their flugel is what the cornet is in British brass bands, I suppose. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 9:27 pm Post subject:
Since I can get by on several instruments, not just the trumpet/cornet/flugelhorn variety, I pick up the instrument that I feel is going to be right for the song I'm playing. That instrument may change in different performances, depending on the mood of the place, the other musicians, whether I have a microphone, whether my lip is shot, etc. In other words, I just choose the right tool for the job, and I approach my playing differently on each. So, every horn can be a useful instrument. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 10:29 pm Post subject:
The flugelhorn is a useful instrument for me because I play gigs that require trumpet and flugelhorn. No flugelhorn, no gig. And if you show up with a flugelhorn but can't produce something like a characteristic sound on it (and play in tune), you won't stay on the gig.
Fortunately, I do enjoy playing the flugelhorn. While I don't pursue the darkest flugel sound (at least not anymore), I don't think anybody would say I sound the same on trumpet and flugel. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Oliver Baron, he plays almost exclusively flugelhorn but when he performs with a trumpet he sounds almost like a flugel. On the other hand Frank Aird from Jamaica, he does not sound quite diffrent and he switch from trumpet to flugelhorn
The mental part/approach definitely plays a big part in the resulting sound (I agree with Riojazz on that). The differences are also sometimes (intentionally) subtle. In the Frank Aird recording, there's still a noticeable difference in the sound but it's not the tone itself so much, but the attacks. It's likely exactly what the artist envisioned: the lack of a big difference is likely intentional. The same goes for the Oliver Baron recording.
Classical flugelhorn players tend to lean more into the part of the sound palette that's distinctly different from the trumpet (i.e. more like euphonium/french horn). Compare the following for example:
Sergei Nakariakov on flugel Sergei Nakariakov on trumpet
The thing with flugelhorn is that it can sound vastly different, if it is played as such. Recently I went flugelhorn testing with a band mate and their first few notes of the day sounded awfully close to their trumpet sound. After changing their approach, the sound changed to something quite different.
This video by Musikhaus Beck compares the flugelhorn to various similar instruments. The differences are quite large even between very similar instruments (rotary vs perinet flugelhorn). It's likely that in this video, the player has distinct sound concepts for the various instruments.
Also, I have noticed that sometimes the nuances in timbre don't pick up on recordings too well, and depending on your recording and playback equipment, may range from very noticeable to barely audible.
Brassnose wrote:
If you like flugelhorns, you should check out the link below. It’s a collection of flugels, alto flugels, tenor flugels, and bass flugels sounding great
Nice video! It's funny because even though the sound/timbre might have been close, you can just hear that if the flugel player would play their part on trumpet, it would stick out instead of blending so nicely as it does in the video. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
It's funny because even though the sound/timbre might have been close, you can just hear that if the flugel player would play their part on trumpet, it would stick out instead of blending so nicely as it does in the video.
Oh, yes, I totally meant that to be the connection. All the other instruments below the flugel are indeed flugel like, since they are conical as well. Much better match than a trumpet. The folks in the video are among the best brass players in France, too. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Welcome to Trumpet Herald! I see you are from the Dominican Republic, La Republica Dominicana. I spent 6 months in your country back in 1983 and I loved it! So many memories and stories.
I also am not a pro-level player. It's true that the likes of Arturo Sandoval and Chris Botti can make their trumpets sound very flugelhorn-like. To my ear, it's in the attacks and higher dynamics that their trumpet separates itself from the sound of a flugelhorn.
I have not learned to make my trumpet sound that way. I have a Wild Thing which has a bell designed for a marching G bugle and a huge .470 bore. Arturo also has one and can make it almost indistinguishable from his Van Laar flugelhorn. I simply cannot do that on mine. I can, however make a nice mellow flugelhorn sound on my flugelhorn. It's just so easy!
I no longer pretend that I can achieve what those great players have done and I am content to enjoy what I am able to achieve at my level. Flugelhorn helps me do that. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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