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AlexBazinet Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2023 Posts: 31 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:59 am Post subject: Getting braces off and a degradation in range |
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This is a topic I'm certain is pretty well worn, but I think my situation is pretty unique. I got my braces off about a month ago now. From day one I was pretty much able to play with the same tone and intonation as before the only real change was in endurance, and range. Before getting my braces off I could play pretty consistently up to the double E to triple G range after getting them off I had a hard limit of an Eb, not double Eb high Eb. The problem I'm having, and the reason for this post, is that my range has been decreasing. Almost everyday I have been doing long tones both with and without a drone, as well as lipslurs, in addition to the Caruso 6 Notes/ 2nds. I have tried taking break days I've put heat on my chops ,but I've been losing range and tone in the upper register as the days go by. Currently I can only play up to a high C with a pretty wimpy sound. Getting my range back is not a super pressing issue as most of the playing I do is combo and the jazz band I am currently in I am 2nd trumpet, but it is concerning non the less. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Your solution is to take a step back and rest.
When my students are getting braces, or having them removed, I get them to take 2 weeks off playing, surrounding the change - or even more. Then they can ‘restart’ their playing.
I’d guess from your description, you just kept in and expected everything to work the way it did. Issue is, there was a profound change made to your mouth. You need time to work around the change instead of forcing things.
Get a GOOD trumpet teacher. Talk to the directors of everything you play in and get their co-what you need to do. (Or change ensembles, complain to the principal / school board, etc) Give yourself time and go slowly. You will be back again. If you do it well, you’ll be back even stronger than before!
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Was there something about how the braces 'fit' that made the braces help align your lips, or maybe the braces forced some particular portions of your lips to be in a good position for vibrating the high notes?
If the braces did some 'mechanical actions' that enhanced lip vibrations, then you might have developed a special skill to use that mechanical assist, and it is not working without the braces - but maybe it has become your habit.
If you are still attempting to use some special 'with braces' techniques, that is likely the problem - you will need to discover and learn the 'without braces' way of getting your lips / embouchure to vibrate. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 231
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Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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I wore Invisalign in my mid/late 40's for about a year. I wasn't real active playing wise but was practicing regularly. The orthodontist advised me to put the horn down.
I had the opposite reaction when resuming practicing. I picked up about a fourth in useable range. My mid range took a while to come back. |
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AlexBazinet Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2023 Posts: 31 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | Your solution is to take a step back and rest.
When my students are getting braces, or having them removed, I get them to take 2 weeks off playing, surrounding the change - or even more. Then they can ‘restart’ their playing.
I’d guess from your description, you just kept in and expected everything to work the way it did. Issue is, there was a profound change made to your mouth. You need time to work around the change instead of forcing things.
Get a GOOD trumpet teacher. Talk to the directors of everything you play in and get their co-what you need to do. (Or change ensembles, complain to the principal / school board, etc) Give yourself time and go slowly. You will be back again. If you do it well, you’ll be back even stronger than before!
Cheers
Andy |
The problem with stopping is I have a weekly gig I've committed to and do one off gigs almost every week and I cant just stop because I use the money to pay off my horn. I have a very good lesson teacher but he's been out since the day after I got my braces for sugery |
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AlexBazinet Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2023 Posts: 31 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:26 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Was there something about how the braces 'fit' that made the braces help align your lips, or maybe the braces forced some particular portions of your lips to be in a good position for vibrating the high notes?
If the braces did some 'mechanical actions' that enhanced lip vibrations, then you might have developed a special skill to use that mechanical assist, and it is not working without the braces - but maybe it has become your habit.
If you are still attempting to use some special 'with braces' techniques, that is likely the problem - you will need to discover and learn the 'without braces' way of getting your lips / embouchure to vibrate. |
I'd agree with this but it would not explain the gradual degradation in range after getting my braces off. |
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wohlrab Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2015 Posts: 131 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:20 am Post subject: |
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AlexBazinet wrote: | Andy Del wrote: | Your solution is to take a step back and rest.
When my students are getting braces, or having them removed, I get them to take 2 weeks off playing, surrounding the change - or even more. Then they can ‘restart’ their playing.
I’d guess from your description, you just kept in and expected everything to work the way it did. Issue is, there was a profound change made to your mouth. You need time to work around the change instead of forcing things.
Get a GOOD trumpet teacher. Talk to the directors of everything you play in and get their co-what you need to do. (Or change ensembles, complain to the principal / school board, etc) Give yourself time and go slowly. You will be back again. If you do it well, you’ll be back even stronger than before!
Cheers
Andy |
The problem with stopping is I have a weekly gig I've committed to and do one off gigs almost every week and I cant just stop because I use the money to pay off my horn. I have a very good lesson teacher but he's been out since the day after I got my braces for sugery |
A weekly gig and a few one offs can still be a very light schedule assuming you're currently practicing daily/in band/etc |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Braces on/off is one of those situations where we can lose our focus and allow our attention to drift to how it feels. Invariably our air suffers causing many problems. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:54 am Post subject: |
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You should certainly be aware of your breathing. However, I think it's most likely that as your teeth have shifted over the time of wearing braces, on top of the sudden change resulting from having them taken off, your anatomy has changed enough that you need to make a correction in your embouchure technique.
Maybe your mouthpiece placement needs to be placed higher or lower or even off to the side (even after braces). There are other things that are too difficult to go into quickly and I'd have to watch you play to offer any real advice. If you can take video of your chops I am happy to take a look. Sometimes I can spot things and offer suggestions that way.
Dave _________________ wilktone.com |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Dental structure has so much to do with the upper register and I don't think anybody really understands it. My theory is that completely flat, perfect front teeth inhibit the upper register. I had braces during middle & high school, so I don't really know what I would have played like otherwise, but with my two big flat front teeth I cap out at a weak high G, no matter what I try. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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If high register is weak, spend more time practicing above your functional play range. Ever so often, descend to verify that you are in full control below.
If everything else fails, get the braces back on and hope for the best. |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I don't think that putting the braces back on is the way to go.
Find the best placement to fit your new anatomy and go for there. Don't worry about what the placement looks like, worry about how it works. I'd start with finding a placement that helps you access the upper register best, even if it's initially softer and thinner sounding. You can work on opening up the tone and descending into the low register more easily than trying to set for the low register and hope that it develops your upper register.
Dave _________________ wilktone.com |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Dental structure does influence the production of sound in trumpet.
For example, John Hagstrom writes in an article published at cso.org "A Tribute to Phyllis Bleck: trumpeter, surgeon and CSO philanthropist",
Quote: | She might have started on the violin, but her family dentist recommended the trumpet because he observed that her teeth were well suited for playing a brass instrument, “so they handed me a trumpet and said, ‘This is it!’” |
(Article was shared today on TH by Vin Di Bona in this thread).
Braces, certainly, influence the geometry of space immediately adjacent to lips. Hence, my suggestion to consider braces (or similar) if everything else fails in restoring the playing ability on the trumpet. |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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I question what a dentist understands about brass playing (my dentist plays trumpet, by the way). I would also question anything that a brass musician (especially me) says about dentistry.
My dissertation looked at, in part, the role that tooth structure played on observable embouchure characteristics. The results were inconclusive and suggest that there are many different factors that combine to result in those embouchure characteristics.
Of course the dental structure has a powerful influence on how we play a brass instrument, but it's not something someone can just eyeball and judge. You have to go with how it works when the metal meets the mouth.
The OP has just gotten braces *off*. What medical reason is there for getting braces put back on? _________________ wilktone.com |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the braces re-installation, if braces help playing, perhaps braces or something similar to braces can be used.
A possible reason why braces helped playing the OP is that braces introduce a separation (air pocket) between lips and teeth.
As per your website:
wilktone.com wrote: | The primary pocketing spot is the upper lip and cheek area above the corners. It’s important to keep corners and cheeks firm, but to allow the air pockets to form. I’ve found this dramatically reduces counter-productive embouchure stress, yet keeps strength where you need it, which is in the corners and through the middle of the cheeks. One more thing. There is always air present under the upper lip/cheek area and even more noticeably when playing in the lower register. This is paramount in getting the “trombone effect” in lower register playing. As you ascend, the facial muscles come more into play and the air pockets become less noticeable, but are still present. |
It would be very interesting to see the results obtained in your dissertation.
I found the link to it at
https://scholar.colorado.edu/downloads/gt54kp254
which pointed to
https://www-proquest-com.colorado.idm.oclc.org/docview/304582289
but that link is not accessible without registration.
Going back to John Hagstrom's article:
What caught my attention in John Hagstrom's story was that it described the experience of Phyllis Bleck (both are / were trumpet players at CSO). The story is important as the event that started Phyllis Bleck's trumpet career.
Dentistry includes the study of the neighboring tissues, particularly, lips. In fact, a general practitioner may be less knowledgeable about issues encountered with embouchure, and possible treatments, when compared to a dentist.
The following is a very speculative scenario describing what might have inspired the dentist to recommend for Phyllis Bleck to start on trumpet:
The dentist may have correlated particular tooth alignment patterns with skill in playing trumpet. Such correlations would be possible to notice if patients treated by the dentist included wind instrument players, and it was known to the dentist which instruments did each one play. Such information can be included in one's medical file, particularly if keeping teeth and lips in top shape is necessary for one's professional job.
Once the dentist is able to successfully treat tooth and lip injuries relevant to playing wind instruments, that dentist becomes known as "wind player dentist" and new clients come in who also play wind instruments. This, in turn, leads to acquisition of more experience with teeth and embouchure of wind instrument musicians.
My conjecture is that dentist observed a tooth alignment pattern similar to that of other trumpet player patients and told Phyllis Bleck to consider trumpet. The rest, is history. |
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 5:14 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Regarding the braces re-installation, if braces help playing, perhaps braces or something similar to braces can be used. |
I haven't listened and watched AlexBazinet play (both while wearing braces and now off), so I can't say whether his issues are directly related to getting his braces off. But as a music teacher I'm not qualified to recommend an expensive medical procedure. Regardless, I think that he just needs to figure out how to play with his current tooth structure. Different brass musicians have all sorts of anatomy and tooth structure and sound great.
Quote: | A possible reason why braces helped playing the OP is that braces introduce a separation (air pocket) between lips and teeth.
As per your website: |
A couple of things. First, those aren't my words. I was quoting what someone else said.
Secondly, was there something that made you suspect AlexBazinet had an air pocket under his lip? And that when the braces came off the air pocket went away and this is what is causing the negative changes? You're speculating and I don't see any reason to suggest a student ask their orthodontist to put braces back on after they have served their actual purpose.
I think it's more likely that the braces both changed the support structure during the time when they were on and then more quickly when they came off. The OP just hasn't been able to work out yet what he needs to be doing differently now.
That's not my dissertation.
Quote: | The following is a very speculative scenario. . . |
Yes, very speculative. _________________ wilktone.com |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wilken, D. (2000). The correlation between Doug Elliott's embouchure types and playing and selected physical characteristics among trombonists. D.A. diss., Ball State University.
Abstract:
"Although traditional methods of teaching brass embouchure tend to favor a more centered mouthpiece placement, individual differences in facial structure may make a centered placement inefficient for many individuals. Thirty-four test subjects (N = 34) who volunteered from a mid-sized, Midwestern university school of music, a mid-sized Midwestern high school, and professional and semiprofessional trombonists from around a Midwestern state were tested for an efficient embouchure and then photographed while playing specific pitches into a transparent plastic mouthpiece. Additionally, each subject filled out a brief survey and had various facial characteristics photographed. Statistics from this data suggest that the three basic types defined by Doug Elliott, Very High Placement Type, Medium High Placement Type, and Very Low Placement Type, are accurate. Evidence also suggested that airstream direction and the use of an embouchure motion is dependant on vertical mouthpiece placement. The angle of the airstream also changes according to the register being played. It was also determined that certain physical characteristics, most notably lip protrusion, suggested that a subject will play with a specific mouthpiece placement."
BSU Library link |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Wilktone Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Now you've found it.
Quote: | It would be very interesting to see the results obtained in your dissertation |
Do you understand P values and Pearson Correlation Coefficients? It's been a while since I've had to deal meaningfully with these statistics and I got help from an expert when I was analyzing my study results and writing the paper.
I'm not going to take the time to set up tables here to display the data accordingly. Here are the relevant data.
Quote: | Correlation Matrix for Vertical Mouthpiece Placement and Degree of Upper Teeth Straightness
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement Degree of Upper Teeth Straightness
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "1.000
.
34" "-.077
.664
34"
Degree of Upper Teeth Straightness "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "-.077
.664
34" "1.000
.
34"
Correlation Matrix for Vertical Mouthpiece Placement and Degree of Lower Teeth Straightness
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement Degree of Lower Teeth Straightness
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "1.000
.
34" "-.154
.383
34"
Degree of Lower Teeth Straightness "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "-.154
.383
34" "1.000
.
34"
Correlation Matrix for Vertical Mouthpiece Placement and Chipped, Protruding, or Missing Teeth
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement Chipped, Protruding, or Missing Teeth
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "1.000
.
34" "-.222
.207
34"
Chipped, Protruding, or Missing Teeth "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "-.222
.207
34" "1.000
.
34" |
The above "tables" demonstrate that after analyzing the data there were no statistically significant correlations between the above dental characteristics and how much upper or lower lip was placed inside the mouthpiece.
Quote: | Correlation Matrix for Vertical Mouthpiece Placement and Orthodontic Work
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement Orthodontic Work
Vertical Mouthpiece Placement "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "1.000
.
34" "-.464**
.006
34"
Orthodontic Work "Pearson Correlation
Sig. (2-tailed)
N" "-.464**
.006
34" "1.000
.
34"
** Correlation is significant at the 0.01 level (2-tailed). |
For some reason the subjects were more likely to place the mouthpiece lower on the lips if they had a history of orthodontic work. I suspect that this is statistical noise, since there was no correlation between the other dental features and mouthpiece placement.
The results of my research, combined with the 25 years of experience teaching since then, suggests to me that anyone who claims to be able to eyeball a student's anatomy and determine embouchure characteristics is fooling themselves (I certainly was). Even a broken clock is right twice a day, so you'll certainly find success stories, such as the Hagstrom article you cited.
But by and large, it's a combination of a wide variety of factors that affect an individual musician's embouchure technique. You really need to judge how effective specific instructions will be where the metal meets the mouth.
Dave _________________ wilktone.com |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6190
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for posting the tables!
Summing up the results on Pearson correlation with Vertical Mouthpiece Placement:
................. Feature ......................... Pearson correlation ... p-value ... N
Degree of Upper Teeth Straightness ............... -0.077 ............... 0.664 ...... 34
Degree of Lower Teeth Straightness ............... -0.154 ............... 0.383 ...... 34
Chipped, Protruding, or Missing Teeth ............ -0.222 ................ 0.207 ...... 34
Orthodontic Work ........................................ -0.464** ............ 0.006 ...... 34
** Correlation is significant at the 0.01 level (2-tailed).
Quote: | For some reason the subjects were more likely to place the mouthpiece lower on the lips if they had a history of orthodontic work. I suspect that this is statistical noise, since there was no correlation between the other dental features and mouthpiece placement. |
The last observation seems to be a rather strong correlation. Even if adjusted for multiple comparisons using Holm's correction, one gets a significant (p < 0.05) correlation with p = 0.024:
> p.adjust(c( 0.664, 0.383, 0.207, 0.006 ), method = "holm")
> [1] .......... 0.766 0.766 0.621 0.024
In principle, with four independent and one dependent variable, a better choice would be to use ANOVA. If raw data are accessible, the p-values can be re-calculated.
Once re-calculated, the p-value for the last feature will likely decrease making it a stronger result (less likely to be generated by chance). That is because Orthodontic Work would be (one hopes) positively correlated with Degree of Upper (and Lower) Teeth Straightness, as well as possibly negatively correlated with Chipped, Protruding, or Missing Teeth. |
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