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LJ
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Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:43 am Post subject: Pistons |
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In addition to Getzen/Edwards and DQ, what manufacturers use nickel pistons? (Monel and I don't get along.)
A bandmate used to have stainless pistons but didn't like what it did to his sound. Comments? |
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Goby
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Joined: 11 Jun 2017
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I think what you mean is nickel plated. Most manufacturers use Monel, a nickel alloy, or stainless steel. The majority of vintage trumpets use nickel-plated pistons because Monel hadn't been developed or implemented in instrument making. Nickel plating pistons creates an even layer of nickel over a base-metal piston, but are vulnerable to having the plating layer peel off with wear. This is why Getzen offers a lifetime warranty on their pistons. Monel is, on paper, a better choice for making pistons because it has a lower coefficient of friction against a brass casing, and there is no need to worry about a thin layer of plating wearing off over time. Getzen would argue that nickel-plating is superior since assembly exposes the Monel piston to high temperatures which soften the Monel, leaving it more vulnerable to wear. Stainless steel is less expensive than Monel, which is why it has become popular more recently, especially in instruments manufactured in Taiwan, but also in Germany. It offers the same benefits of Monel when compared to nickel plated pistons. If you look at vintage instruments, you will find a variety of piston materials and finishes.
Vincent Bach made trumpets with chrome plated pistons, nickel plated pistons, and finally settled on Monel. I believe Benge made pistons out of brass and then nickel plated them in the Chicago era. There are some old Holtons with copper pistons and nickel valve casings. I even heard a story about Doc Severinsen having his pistons silver plated at one point in time, as well as insisting that his personal instruments from Shires have nickel plated valves rather than Shires' standard Monel pistons.
It is impossible to attribute playing characteristics of two entirely different instruments strictly to the valve material, and additionally, to disqualify a valve material based on your experience with one instrument. The most important tolerance is the fit of the piston, not the material. Secondarily, the surface finish of the valve guide channel on the spring barrel will determine how the pistons feel under your fingers. Poorly fit nickel-plated pistons will result in a worse instrument than precisely-fitted stainless pistons. |
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Getzen
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Goby wrote: | | The most important tolerance is the fit of the piston, not the material. |
I have to disagree with this statement. While I agree that there are "good" pistons made out of all three main materials, the tolerance of the pistons is not the primary factor deciding piston life, durability, or action over the material. It does not matter how well made the piston is or how well it is fit to the casing, a soft piston with a poor surface will perform terribly. Along the same lines, a perfectly surfaced piston poorly fit to a casing won't work well either. Both are equally important. It's like putting more weight on bell material over taper, construction, tempering, etc... They all have equal impacts, just in different ways. The whole is greater than the sum of all parts.
Keep in mind that not all Model is the same. Same with stainless steel. There are various alloys of both with different characteristics. Some work for pistons, some don't. Who remembers Yamalloy? Same with nickel plated pistons. There is such a thing as decorative nickel plating that is very thin, soft, and porous. Terrible for a piston surface. To say all nickel pistons are good and all monel pistons are bad (or vice versa) based one experience is like saying all steaks are bad because you had one from a gas station that was awful or all pizzas are great because you had one in NYC that was amazing.
Now if we are talking all things being equal (build quality, tolerances, honing, lapping, etc...) my money is still on nickel plated, nickel silver pistons. Literally.
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted
Last edited by LittleRusty on Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brassnose
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Louise, I think you may be misinterpreting the last post by Little Rusty. I have been teaching at a public university for 20 years and I am constantly amazed at how wrongly people can express things. It starts with wrong spelling and goes beyond (my) imagination. In fact I just added a remark on the cover page of my written exams that wrong spelling of technical terms is indeed wrong and will be counted so.
Sooo, what I mean to say is that I read Rusty’s post as a post from someone who is happy that someone uses a term/word correctly, specifically because the term is often used wrong(ly? Sorry not a native speaker  ). And if you think about it, the Getzens really (literally) have their money in pistons (and other brass stuff).
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
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1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Deleted
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stuartissimo
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Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 990
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | I just really appreciate Brett Getzen being on here. |
Second that.
However, I read the comment as a compliment, not as an insult. Kudos generally means something like ‘giving praise’, and I don’t think it’s generally used in an ironic way.
And as the owner of an (unfortunately somewhat abused) aging Getzen with still near-perfect valves, I can vouch for Getzen’s opinions on valves: they really know their stuff.
| LJ wrote: | | In addition to Getzen/Edwards and DQ, what manufacturers use nickel pistons? (Monel and I don't get along.) |
I think Adams might? I know they offer replating services. Then again, with environmental laws in Europe the plating process has become quite expensive…so maybe they switched.
EDIT: checked and Adams valves are stainless steel. I’ve recently played a few of their instruments and I can say that if there are any supposed downsides to stainless steel valves, they don’t show in Adams’s instruments (which sound and play superbly)!
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Deleted
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Pistons |
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[quote="LJ"
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(Monel and I don't get along.) |
In what way do you have a problem with Monel?
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A bandmate used to have stainless pistons but didn't like what it did to his sound. Comments? |
I'm willing to consider that the stainless steel tubing in a valve could give a different sound than nickel tubing - but how could you tell.
Did your friend have two identical trumpets with different valve materials? |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3308
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Goby wrote: | | ... The most important tolerance is the fit of the piston, ...
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Yes, piston material is important for many reasons.
But the dimensional fit of the piston with the casing is the most important TOLERANCE - straight / round / smooth / etc.
Material choice can affect the length of time before wear causes problems.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Halflip
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Posts: 1927
Location: WI
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Deleted
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Sun Mar 17, 2024 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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Joined: 25 Jun 2023
Posts: 473
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: |
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I used to be a "spelling, punctuation, grammar Nazi" ... but, it seemed to alienate others.
"Ignorance is bliss", I reckon.
HOWEVER ! Ignorance can be overlooked; tolerated, in fact. But, APATHY cannot.
* [You likely have NO IDEA how many people have absolutely NO CONCEPT of correct usage of LIE and LAY ... as well as FARTHER and FURTHER.] 
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Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
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Man Of Constant Sorrow
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Posts: 473
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:54 am Post subject: |
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(Back on topic. I got carried away.  )
What plating on valves, valve material does Monette use?
BTW -- I LOVE Getzen valves! I have several older/vintage Getzen horns, including a rare "Flugel-Bugle". Amazing valves!
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Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz |
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Getzen
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Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1924
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I got all excited when I saw how many replies this post had. Thinking we were going to go into some interesting piston talk. Imagine my disappointment when I found out most were about literally (see what I did there) nothing to do about pistons.
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Pistons |
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| LJ wrote: | In addition to Getzen/Edwards and DQ, what manufacturers use nickel pistons? (Monel and I don't get along.)
A bandmate used to have stainless pistons but didn't like what it did to his sound. Comments? |
Getzen, Benge (until the mid-70's). Olds.
I play an Edwards (Getzen custom shop) and of course that has nickel pistons.
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Deleted
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Deleted
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Deleted
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Last edited by Louise Finch on Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LJ
New Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Goby - thanks for your reply. However, there are some assumptions that make it less than useful. With decades of playing, I am not a newby looking for a magic horn to give that high Z and I have played and owned both nickel and monel horns.
I simply want to know the new horn manufacturers that currently use nickel pistons. I could have asked for those that employ monel, but that list would have been much longer. My assumption is that nickel is limited to a few manufacturers. Am I wrong?
I have no experience with SS pistons, hence I would like to hear from others who have tried them or currently play with them: How does SS affect the sound fpr you?
Thanks
LJ |
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