Valves slow on upstroke

[beetleklee]

I'm a comeback player who has been at it again for about 6 months now. I have a 1970 King Silver Flair which I love how it sounds and plays, but the valves sometimes are slow on the upstroke, especially the third one, followed by the first. The second valve behaves the best, but it too sometimes gets sticky. But it works 99% of the time.

Here is what I have tried:

-New springs, specifically for this model of trumpet.

-New springs, random Amazon ones. They do improve the stickiness, but I hate the way they feel. They're stiff and hard to keep down.

-New felts for the valves.

-A number of oils. Yamaha regular, Blue Juice, Hetman Light, Hetman Classic, Music Nomad.

-I always wash out the valve casings and the valves when switching oils. I recently gave my horn a bath, and it didn't fix anything. I use a valve brush and casing brush, so I'm not just letting it sit in soapy water to clean. Horn was professionally cleaned before my purchase, too.

-Light oil seems to be the worst, Regular next worst, Hetman Classic seems to be the best but best still isn't great....first and third valve are still slow on the upstroke, just less sticky than using light oil.

-Valve Wash detergent makes them work the best, but it is not oil. The third valve still sometimes hangs up with this, though. But it is very close to working perfect after I wipe the oil and apply this.

-I don't see any dents on valves or casings.

-I had a tech take a 10-15 minute look at it when I went to go buy oil, and he was very confused as he didn't see anything wrong. Valves for the most part look fine, the third does have some brown wear at the bottom which may be contributing to the problem.

Is there anything else I can try before I take it to get a more in depth diagnostic? I'm kind of living paycheck to paycheck right now, and fear a valve replating. I don't want to try any sort of thing I have no idea about (ie lapping) but wondering if there are other oils that may work better.

I'm also in Canada so some things may not be available to me.
_________________
1970s King Silver Flair 1055T
1970s Holton T602
1950s Getzen Super Deluxe Cornet
1915 Conn 80A Cornet

[Richard III]

[zaferis]

Just from your description I'm leaning toward thinking that the valves are naturally worn - a little on the loose side, and your hand position/technique is such that when the valve is down you're putting pressure in a sideways direction (slightly), as you raise your finger the valve drags as it has a bit of wobble.
Do they hang up when you work then individually, or just when you're playing? This would be a major hint that it's a hand mechanics issue.

Older horns often work better with a little heavier oil.. I've even used "Yamaha Trombone Lubricant" - very slick with a little body.

Have you checked the valve guides? They can also be a reason the valves hang up - a little burr in the track or if they're very worn/loose.

If it was "professionally" cleaned, I wouldn't think that it's not a cleaning issue. And a dent or burr in the casing or on the valve would act up all the time, not intermittently. (If there were an issue like this and you could see it - the valve wouldn't likely move at all-very close tolerance)
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[jeirvine]

Check the stems aren't bent and rubbing against the hole in the top valve cap. Take off the buttons and it will be an easy check.

And since the 2nd works ok, you can also swap stuff between valves: stems, springs, guides - and see if the problem follows the part.

A diy compression test is another easy thing to do: https://youtu.be/gjFUhOKCrAk?si=gkUmIieGjFJZfdj2&t=183
_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37

[beetleklee]

[beetleklee]

[ConnArtist]

[ConnArtist]

[Halflip]

I had a similar problem with my early 50's Martin Committee. Charlie Melk restored it for me. The valves had no perceptible side-to-side play, and when Charlie tested them they all had very good compression, so aside from cleaning we left them alone (no rebuild).

When I played the horn, the valves would periodically drag and act sluggish (especially the second valve); it happened frequently enough to be an annoyance.

I tried cleaning the pistons and cylinders with a grease-cutting dishwashing liquid a couple of times, and also experimented with different weight oils, all without success.

What finally fixed the problem was soaking the pistons in alcohol for a few hours, cleaning them and the cylinder walls with de-greasing dishwashing liquid (again), and then oiling and reinserting the pistons. (I had tried the same steps previously with vinegar instead of alcohol at the suggestion of a knowledgeable party). After that, I couldn't make the valves stick no matter how hard I tried.

I am guessing that there was some kind of very stubborn, very thin build-up on those decades-old pistons that promoted draggy, sluggish valve action and would only respond to the right kind of solvent.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"

[Andy Cooper]

King made world class valves. One thing they did was put a matte finish on the pistons to better hold the oil.

Do you have shiny spots on the valves? If you do that might indicate the location of small dents in the valve casing.

Get rid of the brown on the 3rd valve. Clean off the oil with detergent, then wrap that portion of the piston with paper towel that is soaked with vinegar. Don't soak the piston in vinegar.

If you have shiny spots on the piston, consider a light lapping with toothpaste. This is a pain since you will have to wash the trumpet again and brush out all of the slides and connecting tubes, then clean the valves repeatedly. I'm assuming you still have good valve compression.

Get some Simple Green to clean your casings with using a cleaning rod and cheese cloth or old t-shirt material. Clean until there is no discoloration on the cloth. A casing brush is not good enough. Clean the valves too.

Try Denis Wick oil with Teflon. It sometimes takes several applications.

[Halflip]

[etc-etc]

Photos of valves may be helpful.

As others have suggested, use heavy Yamaha oil (aka "vintage synthetic"):

https://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-Vintage-Synthetic-Valve-Oil-J56602.wwbw

The bottle below looks gigantic (due to magnification) but holds 2 fl.oz (60 ml) of the oil.

[Bájoc Music]

[ldwoods]

I had purchased a really nice King Silver Flair from the 1970's that also had slightly sluggish valves. I know you said you tried valve cleaning oil, but not sure exactly how you went about it.

I bought some "Clean Stroke" and used it the same as valve oil for several days. I just kept applying it to the valves every time I used the horn for several consecutive days. Once finished playing for that day, I would wipe the valves off with a lint free cloth and then re-apply the Clean Stroke. Next day I was going to play that horn, I re-applied Clean Stroke at the beginning of the session and then would again wipe it off when done practicing. I did not use any regular valve oil, just the Clean Stroke. After several days of this, I cleaned everything again, and then applied only valve oil. That solved the problem. I think you probably have a persistent build up that will take time to get cleaned up.

One more thing, I strongly urge you to NOT use toothpaste to try and hone your valves.
_________________
Larry Woods
LDWoods

[Halflip]

[Divitt Trumpets]

Stuttering on the upstroke is a sign of worn valves.
Thicker valve oil is the answer unless you want to rebuild the valves.
If Hetman 3 and Yamaha vintage don't do it, BERP 3 is the thickest valve oil on the market. Sometimes even Hetman 4 light slide oil cut with a bit of valve oil might work if you're really desperate.
_________________
www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets

[JayKosta]

[Rhondo]

I’d try a complete cleaning again before taking it to a tech if that doesn’t work.

Get H.W. Brass-Saver cleaning brush kit (better than standard brushes) and brush the casings *thoroughly, and every other portion of the horn you can get to.

Also use a cleaning rod wrapped with t-shirt cloth soaked with alcohol in the casings, working it from top and bottom of the casings. You can soak and ring out a bit the H.W. brushes with alcohol too. Wipe and brush the valve pistons thoroughly as well with alcohol after soaking them in warm water and a dash of Dawn dish detergent. Clean the bottom caps thoroughly with cloth again soaked with isopropyl alcohol.

Rinse everything except the felts etc under a warm to almost hot running faucet, and allow to dry completely.

I would definitely use the springs meant for the horn, and toss the Amazon springs in the trash.

[Tony Scodwell]

I'll relay my experience with valves I formally had Kanstul make for me.

Players with my earlier trumpets sometimes got in touch with me concerning similar valve problems, usually 1st and 3rd sluggish action on the upstroke.I spoke with Zig Kanstul about this and he told me the flux he used silver soldering the valve block sometimes interacted with a persons saliva after a period of time causing crystals to for around the valve ports. They were very small and no amount of cleaning got rid of them including what repair shops usually use. He recommended a very slight lapping with Lava bar soap suds applied to the piston and after removing the guides, felts etc. work the piston up and down until you feel no resistance. Lava is equivalent to 2000 grit lapping compound so you aren't in danger of ending up with loose valves. I have used this technique many times and results have been very good.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

[Rhondo]

Seems I read Lava soap is what Doc Severinsen said he uses.