Cornet comparison

[rhatheway]

Hi, I'm new to this forum.

I just picked my horn back up last July after about 30-35 years of not playing. I joined a local community band, I'm starting to get my range back, and since last July I've already worked my way up from 4th part to 2nd (and a few 1st). The band plays college-level concert band music (marches, classical transcriptions, soundtracks, Frank Tichelli types of pieces, etc.), so a wide variety and different styles of music. A lot of the pieces that we're doing have both trumpet and cornet parts, so I dug my old cornet out of the closet (1958 Conn Director) as well as borrowed a few others to compare (1976 Reynolds Medalist, 1963 King Tempo II 603).

The Conn is still being reconditioned, so I haven't played it yet. The Reynolds seems to have a nice full sound, while the King sounds almost more trumpet-like in many ways. Those three horns are all considered "vintage" so I'm also interested in any insight about the construction quality of them as compared to a newer cornet.

I'd be interested in getting any thoughts on these horns, as well as maybe any others I should consider. Any comments, thoughts, suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks.
_________________
Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[cbtj51]

[rhatheway]

Hi Mike.

Good advice and words that I definitely agree with. I'm not looking to rush anything (hey, I didn't play for decades, so...), I'm just trying to get an idea of whether or not these horns are even considered decent enough or have the capabilities that I should invest any time in them, or if these are all student horns and really wouldn't do anything other than frustrate me. Should I look for some other used cornet that might provide a fuller, rounder cornet sound, better quality, etc? That's really the reason for asking.

Thanks.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[Andy Cooper]

Your '76 Medalist should be the same as the Olds Ambassador except for some trim differences. So most reviews of the Olds should apply.

Based on my experience with the student level King cornets, the King sounds trumpet like because conventional mouthpieces give too much gap. (OK - the King is actually "gapless" but insertion depth still has an effect.) I had a backbore shank turned down to give more insertion depth . The cornet then had a broader and more flexible sound and feel. I prefer the older cornets with the valve spring on the outside of the piston.

Your Conn should play fine - just remember it is a .485 bore horn. (Like the MF Banana Horn trumpet.) I spent my first five years of playing on the same model of cornet. We have players on TH that could play it with a Denis Wick 4 British Band mouthpiece - I'm not one of them. A Bach no letter or B cup would be a place to start.

There might be some mouthpiece tinkering to do to match the blow of your trumpet yet get a cornet sound.

What trumpet and trumpet mouthpiece do you use?

[Richard III]

I've tried for years to get community band directors to establish cornet sections in their bands. The first problem is finding other players who want to play cornet. It is a rare bunch and I've never found enought to have a section.

I've played all trumpet parts on a wide variety of cornets, from very old period shepherd's crooks to modern BBB style cornets. I've also used many long cornets. Mouthpieces have been everything from deep period "cookie cutters" to shallow trad jazz sounding mouthpieces. No one ever cared what I played. As long as you are playing the right note, in tune and with the right dynamics and rhythms, they are happy.

Blending in a community band is not ever discussed. People are playing everything from Bach 37s to Wild Things to Severinsen variants to a Yamaha rotary to me playing a Conn 22B and every other horn you've ever heard of. Oh, and one guy likes his Bach C trumpet and transposes everything flawlessly.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[Dayton]

[rhatheway]

Andy Cooper wrote: What trumpet and trumpet mouthpiece do you use?

Andy, my trumpet is a 1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen and I use a vintage Purviance 4*K4 mp (which is another item I'm considering changing, or at least getting something to complement it, as it gets kind of thin in the upper ergisters; I posted a question about that on the mp forum).
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[rhatheway]

Quote: Blending in a community band is not ever discussed. People are playing everything from Bach 37s to Wild Things to Severinsen variants to a Yamaha rotary to me playing a Conn 22B and every other horn you've ever heard of. Oh, and one guy likes his Bach C trumpet and transposes everything flawlessly.

Richard, you're right, there are a lot of different horns in our band. We've got 7-8 players who show up on a regular basis and several of us have cornets (most of which are older models), so we can usually cover the cornet parts.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[rhatheway]

Quote: I haven't played any of the three cornet models you mentioned. Once you get your Conn back, if you like how it plays, stick with it for a while. Give some thought to your cornet mouthpiece. Transitions from trumpet to cornet and back are typically easiest when you have a relatively similar rim size. And if you want an authentic cornet sound, you'll likely find that a cup deeper than you use on your trumpet works best (unless you are playing a deep cup on your trumpet).


Dayton, thanks for the suggestion on the Getzen 800, I may check that out after I play on my Conn. The thing that I like about the Conn is that the springs are at the bottom of the valve instead of included as part of the valve, so it has a different feel. Plus, it seems to have a somewhat darker tone (but I've only tooted it for a few notes so far). As far as mp, I've got both a Bach 5B and 5C, which are deeper than the Purviance 4*K4 I use on my trumpet.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[kehaulani]

You are looking to change trumpet mouthpieces. I wouldn't confuse things with just having re-started by adding a different cornet mouthpiece.

Unless you're well-set financially, this could also be a financially confusing time.

If you want to match up your trumpet mouthpiece with your cornet and not bust the bank, I think you should consider combining your two questions into one.

I would find a Schilke/Yamaha mouthpiece that has the general characteristics you want for your trumpet, duplicate it for cornet and wait until you've got a lot of recovery time under your belt before going to two different and expensive mouthpieces.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Richard III]

Speaking of mouthpieces. Good matches for me are:

Cornet Flip Oakes 7
Trumpet Curry 7BC

Or for jazz:

Cornet Curry 7P
Trumpet Curry 7DE

The rims match and the cup depth is either exactly the same or close.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[rhatheway]

Quote: I would find a Schilke/Yamaha mouthpiece that has the general characteristics you want for your trumpet, duplicate it for cornet and wait until you've got a lot of recovery time under your belt before going to two different and expensive mouthpieces.

kehaulani, you raise a good point. I liked the Schilke 14A4a when I was playing a lot of jazz in the past (when I was in my 20s), as it was very responsive and good in the upper registers. But now as an (ahem) "older adult" I realize that sound quality is more important than being able to screech. What are your recommendations for a mp size I could find in both corent and trumpet? And also, I know absolutely nothing about Yamaha mps, are they any good? Any recommendations there?
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[rhatheway]

Quote: Speaking of mouthpieces. Good matches for me are:
Cornet Flip Oakes 7
Trumpet Curry 7BC
Or for jazz:
Cornet Curry 7P
Trumpet Curry 7DE
The rims match and the cup depth is either exactly the same or close.

Richard, I'm not familiar with Oakes or Curry mps. Are they custom or generally available?
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[Richard III]

[rhatheway]

We got off topic a bit (sorry), so getting back to my original question about cornets, are the three cornets I listed in the original question (1958 Conn Director, 1976 Reynolds Medalist, 1963 Kingo Tempo II 603) considered to be student instruments or are they pretty good horns? Are there any others I should consider?Just because it was my first horn doesn't mean the Conn is a good one (although it has sentimental value). I don't mind trying a few others to see if there is one that is better and I'd enjoy playing more. My goal is to keep playing for many more years, so having the right instruments definitely makes that easier and more enjoyable! Longer term, I'd also like to pick up a decent fluge(but that's a different topic for another day).
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

[ConnArtist]

For what it’s worth, I strongly prefer cornet to trumpet, but I play mostly trad jazz, Afro beat, middle eastern, Balkan, Indian fusion sort of stuff, so to a degree it depends on what sound you want to hear, but… I prefer to do it all on my 1958 Director! You’ve got the big 5 1/8” bell on that right?

It’s stupid… I have 5 different cornets, about as many trumpets, most of them “professional” and worth $1000-2000 in their condition… but my favorite of all is the humble “student” Conn 18A that I payed like 70 bucks for. Hands down, the best timbre of them all… the warmest, fuzziest, fattest, mellowest sound with my Yamaha 9E short shank. It gets a little squirrelly around high A, but well worth that hassle for the sound it delivers.

I vote stick with what ya got! But if you’re itching to try out new horns for the fun of it, no crime in that. But in my opinion, you already have one of the best sounding horns out there
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"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML

[rhatheway]

[ConnArtist]

Ahhh, that ever popular and oh so mysterious dark sound. There's hundreds of threads on TH about that. I suspect it's more alchemy and dark arts than a precise science

From what I've read, that mellow tone (or dark, or smokey, or whatever word you want to put on a sound) has a lot to do with being conical, as opposed to cylindrical. That Conn goes all the way from teeny-tiny cornet mpc receiver to a HUGE 0.485 bore by the first valve. Pretty dang conical. Add to that the 5 1/8" bell, as opposed to the more typical 4.125-4.5" bell, and you've got even more conicality on the back end. My 18A has an even bigger, fatter, and mellower sound than either my 5A or 9A. And those beasts are HEAVY compared to the 18A, so that would tend to refute the heavy theory regarding "dark" sound. But their bells are only 4.25" (IIRC). Which would tend to support the conical theory. That 18A is basically only a half-step away from being a flugelhorn. The deeper the mpc cup and more open the throat on it, the more toward flugelhorn you can push it, which is why I love my Yamaha 9E. For grins and giggles I've plugged my Flip Oakes X5 into the 18A, and boy does THAT lean flugel!

IF you've got the copper (18A) version, legend has it copper adds more darkness tot he tone. I've never tried the brass (15A?) version to confirm. I have no need to look further than my 18A
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"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML

[rhatheway]

[huntman10]

My experience is the the older Director has no provision for a mobile third slide tuner (the third valve slide is at the end of the tube, and the "clean out slide (that extra crook below the valve set) has the same size tubing on both ends. The 18 A third slide separates at the middle of the slide, and cleaning end tubes are shorter and cannot be swapped out. While I don't presently have one in my "stable", I do have parts in my bin.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.