Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:33 am Post subject: Why does practice sometimes not seem to work?
I'm working on getting my chops back and have noticed that sometimes when I go to practice (I do it in the evenings after work) that the practice session just doesn't work. By that I mean that my chops don't seem to want to focus, I can't clearly hit notes (even ones in the staff) and my upper register is just not there. This seems to happen about once a week.
Am I pushing too hard on the practices? Practicing too often? Missing something in the fundamentals or in my warmup (usually low tones, then intervals before starting to work on music), or something else? Any ideas/thoughts/suggestions greatly appreciated! _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Why does practice sometimes not seem to work?
Any of the things you mention could be the cause. But essentially you're describing the very problem that practice is supposed to improve: consistency. So it's possible you haven't practiced consistently for a long enough period of time yet.
Playing well is tricky enough, playing well (enough) all the time takes a lot of practice until eveything becomes 'automatic'. Off-days are unfortunately not entirely unavoidable (insert famous Gillespie quote here), but with enough practice they should hopefully become rare.
One trick that helped me become more consistent was to just put the horn back in the case if I had an off-day, rather than trying to force it work anyway. The latter would just lead to reïnforcing suboptimal playing techniques. Ymmv of course. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:36 am Post subject:
Probable causes are:
Lip problems due to chapping, dryness, food, drink, etc.
Mental / physical tiredness due to prior activities or stress.
What I do on those 'bad days' is easy long tones and intervals using the upper notes that I can play decently - and then going higher / lower if able to have good control and sound.
It's no use getting frustrated when that happens - it only makes it worse.
Just understand that there will be limitations, and work on the things that can be done WELL - so the practice time is worthwhile.
Keep your concentration on 'good playing' of what ever you are able. Even if that is limited to very simple things, do 'good practice' of them. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
By that I mean that my chops don't seem to want to focus, I can't clearly hit notes (even ones in the staff) and my upper register is just not there. This seems to happen about once a week. Am I pushing too hard on the practices? Practicing too often?
If you are practicing for a single long session, try splitting your practice time into two sessions, with at least a few hours off in between sessions. Those two sessions should (together) total about 80% of your current practice time. So if you have been practicing for a single 60 minute session, you'll switch to two sessions that together total no more than 48 minutes (perhaps 30 minutes and 18 minutes).
If that helps, stick with it for a few days and then gradually add back the time you cut, making sure to not exceed the original total practice time and to divide the time between two sessions.
If you are playing multiple shorter sessions, drop one session, and decrease your total daily practice time by that much. Do that for a few days and see if it helps.
First, if you're chops aren't focusing, don't even try the high register. When I'm having bad days (which seem to be endemic in trumpet playing), I concentrate on basics and soft playing (part of my normal daily warmup anyway), and I try not to push it. I also try to look at bad days as the one step back before 2 going forward - if they're not constant, bad days can be part of the growth process.
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Why does practice sometimes not seem to work?
stuartissimo wrote:
Any of the things you mention could be the cause. But essentially you're describing the very problem that practice is supposed to improve: consistency. So it's possible you haven't practiced consistently for a long enough period of time yet.
Playing well is tricky enough, playing well (enough) all the time takes a lot of practice until eveything becomes 'automatic'. Off-days are unfortunately not entirely unavoidable (insert famous Gillespie quote here), but with enough practice they should hopefully become rare.
One trick that helped me become more consistent was to just put the horn back in the case if I had an off-day, rather than trying to force it work anyway. The latter would just lead to reïnforcing suboptimal playing techniques. Ymmv of course.
I've only been playing again for about 9-10 months (after a 30+ year layoff), so I'm sure some of what you're saying is a factor. And yesterday I did just that, putting the horn down instead of trying to power through and force something to happen. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
Probable causes are:
Lip problems due to chapping, dryness, food, drink, etc.
Mental / physical tiredness due to prior activities or stress.
What I do on those 'bad days' is easy long tones and intervals using the upper notes that I can play decently - and then going higher / lower if able to have good control and sound.
It's no use getting frustrated when that happens - it only makes it worse.
Just understand that there will be limitations, and work of the things that can be done WELL - so the practice time is worthwhile.
Keep your concentration on 'good playing' of what ever you are able. Even if that is limited to very simple things, do 'good practice' of them.
You raise a good point about the mental/physical tiredness aspect, I'll need to track my activities a bit more to see how much of a factor that may be. And yes, focusing instead on what I do well, or on long tones and basic techniques is probably a wiser use of my practice time instead of trying to keep pushing harder and harder only to see no gain and get more frustrated. That way I'm at least continuing to build up my stamina and endurance instead of just stopping. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
If you are practicing for a single long session, try splitting your practice time into two sessions, with at least a few hours off in between sessions. Those two sessions should (together) total about 80% of your current practice time. So if you have been practicing for a single 60 minute session, you'll switch to two sessions that together total no more than 48 minutes (perhaps 30 minutes and 18 minutes).
My challenge is that, except on weekends, I don't have enough time after work to really split practice into two sessions like you suggest, as I usually don't finish working until 6pm or so. Do you think two 30-minute sessions separated by 30 minutes would work, or does that not give enough time for my chops to recover between sessions? _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
First, if you're chops aren't focusing, don't even try the high register. When I'm having bad days (which seem to be endemic in trumpet playing), I concentrate on basics and soft playing (part of my normal daily warmup anyway), and I try not to push it. I also try to look at bad days as the one step back before 2 going forward - if they're not constant, bad days can be part of the growth process.
Good point. I'll definitely keep that in mind and try not to get as frustrated when it happens! _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
My challenge is that, except on weekends, I don't have enough time after work to really split practice into two sessions like you suggest, as I usually don't finish working until 6pm or so. Do you think two 30-minute sessions separated by 30 minutes would work, or does that not give enough time for my chops to recover between sessions?
Do you have time before work? I do my first practice session between 4:00-5:30 AM for that reason. If it is truly not possible to practice before work, just try scaling your one practice session back to 50% of what you are currently doing for a few days to see if that helps. If it does, very gradually (weeks) add back practice time until you are at 75%-80% of what you are currently doing and leave it there for a while.
If you want to try to do two evening sessions separated by 30 minutes, start by scaling back to around 60% of what you are currently doing, splitting that time between the two sessions. If it helps, very gradually (weeks) add time until you are doing 75-90% of what you are currently doing and leave it there for a while. Scale back and repeat this process if you push it too far again.
And rather than make a really long response I'll add a separate thought: Keep a practice journal. It can be a useful tool, and could help you figure out if what you are practicing (rather than how long, or in addition to it) is contributing to your rough days.
For example, if you notice that your rough days tend to be the day after you practice the Lip Trilling to High C and Expanding Intervals to High C from Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibilities, then you can make some informed adjustments.
And rather than make a really long response I'll add a separate thought: Keep a practice journal. It can be a useful tool, and could help you figure out if what you are practicing (rather than how long, or in addition to it) is contributing to your rough days.
For example, if you notice that your rough days tend to be the day after you practice the Lip Trilling to High C and Expanding Intervals to High C from Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibilities, then you can make some informed adjustments.
Dayton, a practice journal is a great idea, thanks for that and the other tips! _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
One of the things I noticed is how he starts warming up in the early part of the talk, but for a relatively brief time compared to the amount of time he's talking (and therefore resting)… As a result, as a comeback player myself, I've begun my practice sessions very slowly, with way more rest time than playing at the outset.
Last edited by Rhondo on Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:21 am; edited 2 times in total
Because you're doing something different. I would advise to be very focused on the mechanics of what happens when things do work, *all* the various aspects of what's going on - pressure/pressure distribution, teeth gap/alignment/horn angle, what's going on with the muscles of the lips & face, lip overlap of the edges of the teeth, tongue & oral cavity, throat, use of air.
Some people poo poo this and insist you should focus on practice without having an awareness of the mechanics of what's going on. For myself until I did what I've stated I had great variations in how my chops felt and responded. Hours spent watching what's going in a mirror to see what's actually happening compared to what I'm feeling. I can say from frustrating personal experience that you can spend endless hours practicing and not making any headway if you don't change how you do things. The horn doesn't change, the variable is you - there's a narrow way everything has to work together to get the results you want, you need to learn to do it the way that gets those results as consistently as possible. Play any note with a full, vibrant sound - what's going on is what needs to happen every time. Same with notes at various dynamic levels - the same pitch played loudly vs softly and all points in between have different requirements.
I haven't had a "things aren't working today" experience in a long time - I've spent a lot of time focused on becoming aware of what I've outlined above. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
I hope that you can make sense of this without me trying to explain it — don't start whatever your practice session or routine is without first finding the sound.
Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 1173 Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 10:27 pm Post subject:
No amount of practice will give you improvement if you're doing things wrong for your chops. You just get better at doing it wrong.
If you want significant help figuring things out, I do Skype lessons.
I would advise to be very focused on the mechanics of what happens when things do work, *all* the various aspects of what's going on - pressure/pressure distribution, teeth gap/alignment/horn angle, what's going on with the muscles of the lips & face, lip overlap of the edges of the teeth, tongue & oral cavity, throat, use of air.
Some people poo poo this and insist you should focus on practice without having an awareness of the mechanics of what's going on.
Look, no 10 year old starting trumpet thinks about this stuff and can achieve great results relatively quickly. Yes, there is a degree of luck involved with a beginner with no instruction but this is severe overkill especially if you don't know what "correct" is (like Doug Elliott mentions). All you're doing is analyzing "what is" and you have no idea "what should be." That's where the "poo poo" comes in, not the analysis itself.
Now that somebody has let the "analysis" cat out of the bag, I think the actual problem is a simple one: it is a possibility you are just accidentally putting the mouthpiece in the wrong spot for that session. Often that is a result of too much fatigue (as the feedback loop is dulled) but it can happen without fatigue. Once a week isn't bad though (it means you are generally placing things correctly without too much thought).
Before you go down the analysis route you should make sure your brass habits are good to go: breathing comfortably and repeatably, achieving good sounds, know what good playing sounds like, recording and listening back often.
Trumpetherald is a place where taking certain advice without adequate knowledge or experience will hamper your progress. People are too quick to talk about what worked for them as the "only" path forward. There is a great deal of self-discovery to be made in the absence of a teacher. The only good advice on a forum is essentially "listen to the greats, record yourself, and keep at it." Take everything else, including this, with a grain of salt.
*Conspiracy theory ahead*: It is my unconfirmed/developing opinion that almost all of the analysis in Robert P's post can be erased if you just put the mouthpiece in the best spot. Those people that initially put their mouthpiece in the best spot end up being the "just blow, don't think about mechanics, you musn't analyze" type of teacher. Those that don't, become the "analyze everything and everybody must change their embouchure" junkies. The real answer lies somewhere in between for most but the ideal is to constantly move towards the "little-analysis" side of the spectrum (unless you're already a pro and are looking for that next %). There are a number of diagnostic tools/tests that achieve broad scale analysis without the mental load of a full analysis. To do as Robert P is suggesting is kind of like inventing math and then doing it without a calculator.
I would advise to be very focused on the mechanics of what happens when things do work, *all* the various aspects of what's going on - pressure/pressure distribution, teeth gap/alignment/horn angle, what's going on with the muscles of the lips & face, lip overlap of the edges of the teeth, tongue & oral cavity, throat, use of air.
Some people poo poo this and insist you should focus on practice without having an awareness of the mechanics of what's going on.
Look, no 10 year old starting trumpet thinks of this stuff and can achieve great results relatively quickly.
What 10 year old are your referring to? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
If that is your only response to my lengthy post, I don't think we are going to have a productive discussion as I do not believe this line of questioning will move it forward for the OP. Have a good one!
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