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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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 Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: |
You are imagining that I'm hand-waving and naysaying. |
How many ways are there to interpret -
"exhaustive analysis is chasing your tail"
"It is my unconfirmed/developing opinion that almost all of the analysis in Robert P's post can be erased" ?
This from your first hand-waving, naysaying response to my input -
"All you're doing is analyzing "what is" and you have no idea "what should be." "
doesn't even make sense. If one has already established something isn't happening the way one wants it to happen, you need to *find* what needs to be done differently - by analysis, by trying things, experiencing what they feel like.
Etc.
Apparently you're under the impression that it's highly likely that about once a week someone simply puts the mouthpiece in the wrong place, is unaware of it and that's likely to be the answer to their problems. Beside that this strikes me as silly as I've stated it isn't remotely in line with my experience. I ultimately did change my placement but by itself wasn't the fix to my issues, nor was altering my teeth by itself the answer though it was part of the equation.
What you're calling "brass habits" is part of but only part of what I'm talking about regarding the totality of what needs to happen.
Maybe I'm the only one in the history of mankind's experience with the trumpet that this is true for but until I did exhaustive analysis things didn't change.
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Rhondo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 220
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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“exhaustive analysis”
Robert P, with all due respect, I get the impression you’re trying to apply your personal experience in detail as a requirement for the OP to be able to solve their current issue of having a bad day now and then.
Several posters here in some form have advised rhatheway to simply try resting more, or to slow down, or cut practice session time.
Are you claiming a solution can’t be that simple for the OP’s current issue? |
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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhondo wrote: | “exhaustive analysis”
Robert P, with all due respect, I get the impression you’re trying to apply your personal experience in detail as a requirement for the OP to be able to solve their current issue of having a bad day now and then.
Several posters here in some form have advised rhatheway to simply try resting more, or to slow down, or cut practice session time.
Are you claiming a solution can’t be that simple for the OP’s current issue? |
I haven't seen/heard rhatheway play. I know he's an adult who previously developed a certain amount of skill on the horn who's been playing again for most of a year yet as I understand it still has problems consistently getting above the staff. An hour a day doesn't sound like an exhaustive practice schedule if he's resting a little in between whatever he's working on, and he's been playing regularly for most of a year.
I think there's no question that there's an issue with the mechanics of rhatheway's playing. I offered my take on how I fixed similar problems I had. I probably wouldn't have had much else to say about it until abon decided it was his duty to impugn my input with what I consider to be jumbled, not particularly logical rhetoric sounding very much like teachers I had whose directions I assure you I followed that either didn't help or made things worse because they didn't know wth they were talking about.
My sole goal originally was to offer advice to rhatheway that worked for me - who else's experience would you like me to go off of? "Try to be very conscious of the totality of what's going on when things are working right" doesn't seem controversial to me but apparently it's confusing and seems unreasonable to abon.
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Last edited by Robert P on Mon Apr 15, 2024 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | Rhondo wrote: | “exhaustive analysis”
Robert P, with all due respect, I get the impression you’re trying to apply your personal experience in detail as a requirement for the OP to be able to solve their current issue of having a bad day now and then.
Several posters here in some form have advised rhatheway to simply try resting more, or to slow down, or cut practice session time.
Are you claiming a solution can’t be that simple for the OP’s current issue? |
I haven't seen/heard rhatheway play. I know he's an adult with who previously developed a certain amount of skill on the horn who's been playing again for most of a year yet as I understand it still has problems consistently getting above the staff. An hour a day doesn't sound like an exhaustive practice schedule if he's resting a little in between whatever he's working on, and he's been playing regularly for most of a year.
I think there's no question that there's an issue with the mechanics of rhatheway's playing. I offered my take on how I fixed similar problems I had. I probably wouldn't have had much else to say about it until abon decided it was his duty to impugn my input with what I consider to be jumbled, not particularly logical rhetoric sounding very much like teachers I had whose directions I assure you I followed that either didn't help or made things worse because they didn't know wth they were talking about.
My sole goal originally was to offer advice to rhatheway that worked for me - who else's experience would you like me to go off of? "Try to be very conscious of the totality of what's going on when things are working right" doesn't seem controversial to me but apparently it's confusing and seems unreasonable to abon. |
Folks, as the OP, let me clarify a bit about what I was asking here...
I played cornet/trumpet for ~20 years before putting it away for ~30 years, so I know how to play. I picked it back up just under a year ago. My original question that I posted here was asking about why sometimes my practice sessions (typically in the late afternoon after I get off work) don't seem to work. Rangewise, I can hit high C/D above the staff without too much effort, so my range is coming back. My question was really more about why is it that sometimes my practices seem to work well and I can do everything I want to do, and yet other times it seems that I can't do anything well at all. I can't hit the notes I want (range, control), they don't sound full or they peter out (breath control and endurance), and/or they crack when I hit them (slotting). I know that being less than one year into a comeback is probably too early to expect miracles, so I should probably be satisfied with what I've already accomplished in that short period of time and continue practicing, building up my endurance, strengthening my breath support, etc. so that my chops build back up. But as a part-time musician, let's face it, that does get frustrating (we've all been there at one time or another, I'm sure). All of your suggestions are valid, and ultimately, I have to find what part of them makes sense to me and what works for me, because what works for me may/may not work for you or anyone else. But that's one of the fascinating things about being a musician, there's so many ways to do it "right" depending on an inumerable number of factors, and they all work. The good news is that we can all continue to learn from each other, pick up tips and tricks, incorporate them into our own arsenal, and then make them uniquely ours.
Truthfully, this discussion has been fascinating, and I'm very thankful to all of you for contributing comments and suggestions based on your personal experiences. I've especially been interested in the deep discussions around pedagogy, technique, analysis, methods, teachers, etc., as it's obvious there are many incredibly talented and knowledgeable people on this forum.
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1784
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: |
How many ways are there to interpret -
(1) "exhaustive analysis is chasing your tail" |
You removed its context which provided the clarification ("Because there are an infinite number of possible element strength combinations, exhaustive analysis is chasing your tail"). On any given note you can add 10% more embouchure effort (not even getting into all the muscle groups engaged), 1% more upper lip forward alignment, 3% less air, etc and still achieve the same sounding note as 1% less embouchure effort, complete lip alignment, and 2% more air (these are just random attributes at random strength levels). How do you know which is right? How do you make that productive? I'd love an answer. I take word usage seriously and I carefully chose the word "exhaustive" for that sentence.
| Robert P wrote: | | (2) "It is my unconfirmed/developing opinion that almost all of the analysis in Robert P's post can be erased" ? |
This whole section had a "conspiracy theory alert." It is meant to be taken as food for thought. The idea being that the most optimal placement negates a large amount of mental focus on optimizing the embouchure as a whole. Many more parts work in synergy with the correct placement.
| Robert P wrote: | (3) "All you're doing is analyzing "what is" and you have no idea "what should be." "
doesn't even make sense. If one has already established something isn't happening the way one wants it to happen, you need to *find* what needs to be done differently - by analysis, by trying things, experiencing what they feel like. |
It does make sense. Every time you look inward at the embouchure, you are taking a snapshot of the conditions. That is analyzing "what is." However, for somebody who has never experienced the production of a professional tone or doesn't have the knowledge of proper embouchure function, they don't know what conditions "should be" (what should be). Hopefully that clarifies it.
| Robert P wrote: | | Apparently you're under the impression that it's highly likely that about once a week someone simply puts the mouthpiece in the wrong place |
Oops, you misquoted me. I said, "is a possibility." I never said highly likely. Just a possibility.
| Robert P wrote: | | What you're calling "brass habits" is part of but only part of what I'm talking about regarding the totality of what needs to happen. |
As I said as well. It is most certainly only part of the totality. I was defining brass habits for stuartissimo.
| Robert P wrote: | | "Try to be very conscious of the totality of what's going on when things are working right" doesn't seem controversial to me but apparently it's confusing and seems unreasonable to abon. |
Not confusing to me. Not unreasonable for SOME people. For most people on this forum, not knowing "what should be" is the reason that considering the totality isn't productive.
Anyway, to each their own! All the best
Last edited by abontrumpet on Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 192
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi OP, Richard
You sparked off a lively thread here - with lots of expertise and (strong) desire to help on display.
IMHO the single most important thing to develop on the Horn is to stay highly motivated - day after day. (especially true for come back players I guess)
Many years ago on this forum Michael wrote - (In his case The Horn has won - thanks for that quote Stuart) that he actually sees "bad days" as good days - evidence that his Embouchure is progressing / being refined - which makes sense when you think about it. (As Abontrumpet advised me on another thread - "If you are constantly recreating yesterday, you are standing still")
Insert Winston's famous quote on Attitude ("Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference")
But you teach best what you most need to learn - this morning my Chops felt awful but this evening it was my turn to be Winning.
Cheers Steve
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rhatheway
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Joined: 02 Apr 2024
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| steve0930 wrote: | Hi OP, Richard
You sparked off a lively thread here - with lots of expertise and (strong) desire to help on display.
IMHO the single most important thing to develop on the Horn is to stay highly motivated - day after day. (especially true for come back players I guess)
Many years ago on this forum Michael wrote - (In his case The Horn has won - thanks for that quote Stuart) that he actually sees "bad days" as good days - evidence that his Embouchure is progressing / being refined - which makes sense when you think about it. (As Abontrumpet advised me on another thread - "If you are constantly recreating yesterday, you are standing still")
Insert Winston's famous quote on Attitude ("Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference")
But you teach best what you most need to learn - this morning my Chops felt awful but this evening it was my turn to be Winning.
Cheers Steve |
Hi Steve, you're right, this has really been an interesting discussion!
Thanks for your comment about staying motivated and also for what Michael told you about the embouchure being progressed/refined. That makes a lot of sense to me, so obviously since I'm still having bad days, that must mean I must be improving! 
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A |
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