Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:01 am Post subject: New Flugelhorn
Hi all - I have been playing a Phaeton Matte black flugelhorn (light jazz) for about 10 years. It's...OK. Has some significant intonation issues (middle c almost 1/4 step sharp, things below staff are flat, a few things above the staff).
I use a Rick Braun mpc from Marcinc, so I don't need to be really dark, and the sound is not the problem, but the intonation.
So - I'd love to get an Adams F1 (played one at conference a long time ago and loved it). But that is at least $3500 or so. And, if I have to I will. I love the sound as well with the antique finish.
BUT - An alternative could be getting a used really good horn and then getting a custom finish from say, BAC who will overhaul it at the same time (not sure of cost...$1000? more? I asked for quote).
I have a number of flugelhorns, one of which is a Noblet (which is a stencil of a Leblanc, which is in turn a stencil of the Courtois model at Dillon's). I think it plays pretty well. Here's a recording of Mike Metheny playing a Noblet like mine:
Whether you find that it plays more in tune for you than your Phaeton is another matter; it might. I would recommend that you try it (assuming that Dillon will ship it to you on a trial basis).
You might also be able to find a more modern used flugel at a bargain price. I snagged a like-new B&S Challenger II "Bronchon" for a little over $1000 on eBay (I'm guessing the seller bought it before parent company Buffet Crampon tripled the price). It is a pro horn with excellent playing characteristics that has received a number of positive reviews. A used Yamaha Bobby Shew model (YFH-6310Z) would be another good option (I have one of those, too). _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
I’d second the suggestion of B&S horns. They are well made, play well, and sound like a flugel, too. Never had unusual intonation problems with those.
The Brochon is one option but the more common version is the 3145 Challenger. Very nice horn and can be had (at least in Europe) for about 700+ EUR used. If you were in Europe, I‘d also suggest Kühnl & Hoyer, good quality for good prices, but they seem rather rare in the states. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Get a Yamaha and be done with it.
Great intonation, great sound, great response.
631
731
6310Z
8310Z
8315G
Can't go wrong. Used, from $1200 - up to Brand new 8315IIGS - $2800
The price is definitely right, but imho they don't hold up compared to the Adams flugels. When we visited Adams they had a few Yamaha's laying around as well (including an 83* I think). My bandmate tried them briefly, and then put them back in the case. They just didn't have the same presence as the Adams flugels. Eventually they wound up buying a used Yamaha for budgetary reasons (until they saved enough to buy an Adams), and that one too simply didn't have that same effect.
At $1200 the difference is large enough imho, but if you're gonna spend $2800 I'd personally wait up and save a little bit more to get that Adams flugel still.
Just my opinion of course. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Joined: 26 Oct 2023 Posts: 45 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:30 am Post subject:
You might get better replies if you provide your budget, there may be merit in just waiting a bit, saving up, and purchasing the F1. I wouldn't purchase a flugelhorn without a third valve trigger. I recently purchased a new Getzen 3895 for less than half MSRP, so deals are out there if you are patient. Tony Scodwell's Flugelhorn seems to be well regarded here on the forum and it's ~$2000 Good luck. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 180S37
Getzen Custom Series 3895
_______________________________________
I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it.
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 6:52 am Post subject: New Flugelhorn
For the past 25 years I've been basically playing Yamaha flugels. 631G; 8310Z; and 8315G. I also recently tried the new Shew 8310ZII which I really didn't like. Nice sound, great intonation but it was like trying to blow thru a straw!
Recently I purchase a new 8315GII which is a very nice horn. A poster said they run $2800. I'd LOVE to know where he can find it for that low of a price! First of all Yamaha is having ALOT of trouble getting parts and are totally backed up. There's basically NO 8315GII horns available in the US. Most vendors are saying they won't have them until AT LEAST the end of the summer. The going price is around $3500 and will probably go up in price by the time the horns actually arrive. Add shipping and tax to that price and ur looking at about $3700-3800!
NOTE: shortly I will be listing my brand new Yamaha 8315GII for sale at a GREAT discounted price! I also have a Yamaha 8315G Gen I that I will be listing at an even greater discount. The Gen II is brand new...maybe 5-6 hours of play time on it...if that. The Gen I is in MINT condition as I owned 3 flugels that I constantly rotated. For more info and pricing please PM me. Why am I selling these flugels you ask? Read on!
In my flugelhorn search I tried 2 Yamaha 8310ZII's; a Yamaha 8315G...that I kept knowing it would work; 2 Van Laar's: and 2 Schilke 1041's with the all copper bell. NONE of those other three models did anything positive for me . I play flugel almost as much as my trumpet and I just wasn't willing to "settle".
Right after I purchased the Yamaha ( about a week or so) I ran into a flugel that I had been wanting to try for over a year but couldn't find it anywhere. I was browsing WW&BW one day and THERE IT WAS...and Adams "F1" in Satin Lacquer. Knowing how hard they are to get I couldn't get to my phone quick enough to order it...lol! It arrived the next day and I knew shortly after the first playing session THAT was the horn I had been looking for...probably my entire career.
I can't say that the Adams is better than the Yamaha's...it's just better FOR ME and has the blow and sound that I've been seeking.
To the OP and everyone contributing to this thread...I apologize for my lengthy post! I just enjoy passing on info that I've gained via playing regarding horns and I hope you will be able to find something helpful in your pursuit of the "holy grail".
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:39 am Post subject: Re: New Flugelhorn
maynard-46 wrote:
For the past 25 years I've been basically playing Yamaha flugels. 631G; 8310Z; and 8315G. I also recently tried the new Shew 8310ZII which I really didn't like. Nice sound, great intonation but it was like trying to blow thru a straw!
Recently I purchase a new 8315GII which is a very nice horn. A poster said they run $2800. I'd LOVE to know where he can find it for that low of a price! First of all Yamaha is having ALOT of trouble getting parts and are totally backed up. There's basically NO 8315GII horns available in the US. Most vendors are saying they won't have them until AT LEAST the end of the summer. The going price is around $3500 and will probably go up in price by the time the horns actually arrive. Add shipping and tax to that price and ur looking at about $3700-3800!
NOTE: shortly I will be listing my brand new Yamaha 8315GII for sale at a GREAT discounted price! I also have a Yamaha 8315G Gen I that I will be listing at an even greater discount. The Gen II is brand new...maybe 5-6 hours of play time on it...if that. The Gen I is in MINT condition as I owned 3 flugels that I constantly rotated. For more info and pricing please PM me. Why am I selling these flugels you ask? Read on!
In my flugelhorn search I tried 2 Yamaha 8310ZII's; a Yamaha 8315G...that I kept knowing it would work; 2 Van Laar's: and 2 Schilke 1041's with the all copper bell. NONE of those other three models did anything positive for me . I play flugel almost as much as my trumpet and I just wasn't willing to "settle".
Right after I purchased the Yamaha ( about a week or so) I ran into a flugel that I had been wanting to try for over a year but couldn't find it anywhere. I was browsing WW&BW one day and THERE IT WAS...and Adams "F1" in Satin Lacquer. Knowing how hard they are to get I couldn't get to my phone quick enough to order it...lol! It arrived the next day and I knew shortly after the first playing session THAT was the horn I had been looking for...probably my entire career.
I can't say that the Adams is better than the Yamaha's...it's just better FOR ME and has the blow and sound that I've been seeking.
To the OP and everyone contributing to this thread...I apologize for my lengthy post! I just enjoy passing on info that I've gained via playing regarding horns and I hope you will be able to find something helpful in your pursuit of the "holy grail".
Thanks, Butch.
It goes to show how different we all are. My flugel journey has been almost the opposite.
Apart from two brief goes on colleague's flugels with their mouthpieces, I have played one flugel mouthpiece, a Bach 3CFL that I bought cheaply off Ebay years before I owned a flugel. When I did buy a flugel, the only one I've owned, a used silver-plated Bach 183, I put in my mouthpiece, and have never changed.
I have a second Bach 3CFL flugel mouthpiece as a spare, but I've never so much as tried it.
I've always been really happy with my sound on my Bach 183, and have received a fair few compliments regarding my flugel sound and approach, which is always nice.
I guessed I lucked out regarding my flugel set up, and have never felt the need to change.
Take care and best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
John (OP), I get the feeling that you would really only be satisfied with that Adams F1. If you are willing to compromise for something that plays more in tune for less money, you need to set a specific price limit and you need to try more brands -- you might find a surprise "ringer" that will satisfy you almost as much as the Adams.
You could save money by eschewing that custom finish requirement, too . . . _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:26 pm Post subject:
If we restrict the discussion just to flugelhorn intonation on a horn you otherwise like, the first place I would check is the taper of the lead pipe you are using and then ensure that the mouthpiece shank matches it. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
If we restrict the discussion just to flugelhorn intonation on a horn you otherwise like, the first place I would check is the taper of the lead pipe you are using and then ensure that the mouthpiece shank matches it.
Good point!
Since the OP has been playing his flugel for about 10 years, it would be pretty tragic if he turned out to be using a mouthpiece with the wrong shank the whole time. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 2:49 pm Post subject:
True. I would expect most of us could recognize a wrong shank size, but perhaps not everyone might realize how much the leadpipe taper can affect intonation. Using a strobe tuner, I compared the stock leadpipe that comes with my horn with a French taper and the intonation was closer to correct across the board with the French taper. The hard part of such a test is letting the note fall where it will, rather than continuing to lip it into the pitch you have been unconsciously adjusting it to. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:07 am Post subject: Re: New Flugelhorn
maynard-46 wrote:
Recently I purchase a new 8315GII which is a very nice horn. A poster said they run $2800. I'd LOVE to know where he can find it for that low of a price!
Weird, I dont know anyone who pays Yamaha’s suggested printed prices. That’s always the price shown online. But, if you call the store, they’ll give you their actual price. And, it’s usually discounted hundreds.
Dillon has one right now.
That being said, got my 8315IIGS for far under $3k
Hi all - thanks for all the great replies!
Good info!
I had entertained the leadpipe subject, so I conversed with Josh at ACB and he confirmed that both the Marc RB mpc and the Phaeton are both "large shank taper."
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:37 am Post subject: new flugelhorn
Quote:
Weird, I don't know anyone who pays Yamaha’s suggested printed prices. That’s always the price shown online. But, if you call the store, they’ll give you their actual price. And, it’s usually discounted hundreds.
I'm quite savvy when it comes to getting discounts when purchasing a new horn. I've probably owned 200+ horns spanning my 60 year playing career so I've had alot of experience. This 8315C II was an exception.
Not one online store had one for sale except the place where I ended up purchasing it. Had WW&BW had one in stock I would have gotten a massive discount...but they weren't due in until June, at the earliest. I used to deal with the company were I purchased it but things there must have changed in the past 10-15 years. NO discount...they also charge shipping and now tax. Years ago they used to match WW&BW...NO longer. The salesman has been there forever and he was VERY unfriendly this go 'round to the point I will not deal with them again. I just wanted the horn and they had me by the "you know what" 'cause they knew this model wasn't to be found plus they only had ONE left in stock. In fact they STILL haven't gotten any in stock.
So for all the discounts I've gotten over the years I bit the bullet and paid their asking price.
I do give you many kudos for getting the discount that you got though! Congrats!
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:30 am Post subject: Flugel to consider
My new Scodwell USA flugel has been very well received by players who came into Washington Music Center looking for another brand. After trying the horn they came in for Lee Walkowich asked if they would care to try the Scodwell. After comparing both, the Scodwell was chosen with the added benefit of saving a thousand dollars over the other brand. I must tell you that my reasoning for setting the retail price on the low side with my new flugel was due to the cost of components I'm using compared to what Kanstul was charging me prior and quality and playing is most definitely improved. All are in brush finish with rose brass bells.
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 462 Location: Newcastle, Washington USA
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:19 pm Post subject:
I have a friend who bought one of Tony’s new flugelhorns late last summer. I was able to borrow it one week for a brass band rehearsal, and found it to be an excellent instrument. I own an Adams F1 and consider my friend’s Scodwell flugel to be equal or better. Of course the choice of instrument depends on the individual and what kind of playing they do, but I would encourage anyone looking for a flugelhorn to try a Scodwell. _________________ Matt Dalton
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1843 Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Flugel to consider
Tony Scodwell wrote:
My new Scodwell USA flugel has been very well received by players who came into Washington Music Center looking for another brand. After trying the horn they came in for Lee Walkowich asked if they would care to try the Scodwell. After comparing both, the Scodwell was chosen with the added benefit of saving a thousand dollars over the other brand. I must tell you that my reasoning for setting the retail price on the low side with my new flugel was due to the cost of components I'm using compared to what Kanstul was charging me prior and quality and playing is most definitely improved. All are in brush finish with rose brass bells.
FINALLY! Someone has given the fluegel a tuning slide! I went to your site and Washing Music Center to get some info on your fluegel. I have a FO WT gold plated that I absolutely love, but if I was in the market for a Fluegel, I would definintely give the Scodwell a look. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods
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