what is normal lip swelling?

[Douglas James]

Hi everyone, thank you for taking the time to read this post. I am pretty sure this has been covered ad nauseum, on other posts, so bear with me, I actually have a specific question that I couldn't find an answer to anywhere.

problem: upper top lip swelling, at the nib that forms on the center of the upper lip after 5 minutes of warm ups or playing of any type. sometimes so severe it ruins my playing for a day.

knowns:
-I am strictly a classical player(not Jazz or big band).
-My embouchure is correct for me.
- I have always had this issue from day one.
-I am absolutely not using too much pressure. (in fact it is very light even into the higher registers)
- I do not have an allergy to brass. and no known inflammation issues.
- I am (probably) not over practicing
- current workable range is about a high D (as played on a Bb trumpet )
yet it is increasing despite the swelling on good days only.
a typical practice day would be about 1.5 hrs, and maybe 45-60 minutes of lip time. usually spread out over the day, sometimes not.

Synopsys.

Ok, so I have this lip swelling that has always been a part of my playing. I've been back at the trumpet for about 5 weeks.

I am a comeback player and I quit back 20+ years ago due to the lip swelling issue. I was hoping it was due to over practicing and since its a long story, Ill just say I didn't know that practicing for 6 hours a day didn't help to develop endurance back then. now I know I need rest.

However, today I woke up with swelling so bad that my lips could not even buzz in the mouthpiece. Granted I did play a lot in the high register last couple days. I'm sure some of it is just stiff chops. But when I read other players "bad lip days" mine does not seem to fit that description. my lip swells up on some days so badly I cannot even buzz.

my question is. what would a "normal" bad chop day be for the average person? is it normal not to be able to even buzz in the mpc?

My fear is, that my lips, simply cannot take the stress of the vibration and they simply swell up from that. If so there is no exercises that would help, and I would be forced to quit.

I am not willing to launch an all out investigatory deep dive spending hundreds of $$ to find out that it is a genetic defect.

I find when I rest that it seems to allow me to play again but it swells up every time, after 5 minutes no matter what I do. Some days I can play for what seems like hours with no issues even tho the lip is swollen. other days its just too much. if I have a really bad day, rest solves it as far as playing goes, but the swelling is still there. good day or bad, there has never been a day my lip has not swollen when paying trumpet.

is it possible it is a genetic limitation?
if not, what else could cause this beyond the factors I have listed to not be the cause?
thanks for your help.
thanks for having me aboard.

best/Doug

[Rhondo]

I’m 3 1/2 months back and have lip swell as well. I think it’s probably normal for awhile for a comeback.

If it’s 5 minutes of horn on the lips at warm up that would be too much for me. I take fairly long breaks of 5 minutes or more when starting up.

Jim Pandolfi said after years of playing on a 5C he moved to a 1C because of lip swell, but he was a pro playing a heavy workload in the Philharmonic. I tried moving from a 5C to 1.5 or 1C but it was harder to play so I didn’t stick with it and went back to the 5C.

I don’t recall having much of an issue after finally getting established when I played years ago, but I was younger then and never had a super intense workload in the college orchestra I played in.

Interested to see what other more experienced players have to say.

[Douglas James]

[lipshurt]

So let me see if I understand it….

Your lips swells up. How do you know this?

Can you see it? After playing does any mention that your lips look big?
If not, it’s only a little of swelling.

Is it true that you think it’s too swollen because you can’t get your Lois to buzz in the mouthpiece? If that’s the only thing, there are lots of reasons people have bad response after their warmup. Usually a too small or too shallow mouthpiece is like that. After a bit of playing it shuts off cuz of swelling, but it’s not much swelling. It’s really a lip intrusion issue then. Lots of people have that.

Is there any pain? If not you prob don’t have any more swelling that other players.

You say “my embouchure is right for me” which kind of sounds like you set up might be described by an onlooker as odd or unconventional. Is it?


If you have some sort of protruding tooth that can make a tiny little spot swell and cause all kinds of havoc. Do you have that?

It sounds like it’s a mouthpiece issue to me unless you have some kinds of major swelling. Everyone has swelling. Some people have more lip intrusion, and they are bothered more by swelling or too small mouthpiece
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Douglas James]

[Halflip]

[Dayton]

[Mike Prestage]

[ldwoods]

Welcome to TH Douglas. I also have similar struggles. Same as you, I have had several lessons and have been told things along the lines of, your setup looks fine, your embouchure is fine, etc. However, the more I study this and try to unlock the code to endurance and range, the more I am convinced there is something that needs to change in my approach. My embouchure may look fine from the outside, but I think inside the mpc cup (which can not be seen by an instructor) the top lip is rolling out into the cup.
I think you may find some experimentation is in order. For me, what seems to be the best approach is to try and "roll in" the lips so less of the top lip red does the vibrating. Additionally, I need to try and get the bottom lip more engaged. It is very hard to control and keep the top lip from rolling out or unfurling into the mpc, primarily because that part of the lip structure vibrates so easily and makes playing lower and middle register easy.
One place to start as you experiment is looking into the Balanced Embouchure (BE) approach. I bought the book years ago, even took a lesson from the author Jeff Smiley, but have had mixed results as I keep trying it. However, there are many testimonials and great success stories from virtually everyone that follows the method. https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=29
_________________
Larry Woods
LDWoods

[Douglas James]

[Douglas James]

[Douglas James]

[Douglas James]

[Douglas James]

Update: woke up today after resting yesterday. yesterday I couldn't even get a buzz in the mpc. later on I managed to get the lips working slightly, and play maybe 10 minutes, possibly even less. this morning. same. absolutely no buzz. lips still swollen or chops are broken. or something.

lips feel swollen. like a tough spot that won't vibrate formed on my upper lip over the last two days. So lip is absolutely useless.

The middle part of my lip is now solid. I'm guessing upper lip is swollen so badly I can't even get a sound.

I am done. crushed. very sad. no one, no method, can actually help.

So, that proves there must be a genetic flaw. I have never had two days where my lips couldn't buzz at all. not in the mpc. not on trumpet, and not freebuzzing.

I quit for this reason two decades ago and went through 4 years of frustration trying to fix it. and I am not willing to go through that frustration again. thanks for all the responses.
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet

[Mike Prestage]

[Andy Cooper]

1. Are you using a new 3C mouthpiece or the one you played 20 years ago?
2. Do you polish your mouthpiece frequently with silver polish?
3. Have you ever tried a gold plated, stainless steel, or a plastic mouthpiece?
4. Have you ever tried a Wedge mouthpiece?
5. Have you tried a larger mouthpiece such as a Bach 1 1/4 or Yamaha 17B4?
6. Do you have any general allergies that you sometimes take allergy meds for?

I understand your feelings of frustration - for years I thought everyone's lips bleed when they played.

You have not yet, explored all options.
I would experience the same things you are experiencing if I polished my mouthpiece every week with 3M or tried to play on a plastic mouthpiece. I cannot tolerate the "friction". 3M leaves behind a wax protectant that increases friction, plastic has more friction too. I like to play "wet" not dry.
For me either no polish, stainless steel or gold plate.

I'm also sensitive to a lot of "undercut" on the rim - leads to vibration cuts and swelling (not from pressure). After years, I settled on a large diameter mouthpiece with not much undercut and an "inverse lay" rim. It puts most of the pressure closer to the outside of the rim leaving the inside free to move around.
NEILL SANDERS 17DA vs. BACH 1-1/2C( I play on the Sanders 17M which has a cup a little smaller the the Bach 1 1/2C)
The Wedge mouthpiece does something similar but in a different way.

Again - you have not explored all of your options.

[CaptPat]

As a comeback player I found getting rest is important, so my practices are a series of 30-minute periods, in each period I play for 20 minutes and rest for 10, rinse and repeat 3 sometimes 4 times. I also take one day a week off from practice. I recently switched from a 3C to a 1 1/2C as the former was closing off near the end of each session, things are better with the larger MP, and my wife says I sound better.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 180S37
Getzen Custom Series 3895
_______________________________________
I play trumpet because I like it, not because I'm good at it.

[Richard III]

Any lesion on the inside of your lip? It would look like a small blister.

I used to have a habit of biting my lip when eating after a lot of playing. I would then get a canker sore, which would increase the swelling and make playing impossible.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[spitvalve]

For what it's worth, give this stuff a try:

https://www.robinsonsremedies.com/blog/product/lip-renew/

I use it after every practice session and sometimes in the middle of a session. Helps keep the swelling down and feels good on tired chops.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[Rhondo]

I would listen to Dayton and do what he suggests.

You’re only 5 weeks in! You can’t expect to not have consequences from over practicing, and it sounds like that may have been what you were doing years ago as well. Trumpet requires boat loads of patience.

Since it was mentioned, I don’t know why anyone would polish their mouthpiece. Keep it clean though. If it’s tarnished, use the tin foil, baking soda & hot water method to clean it.