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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 214 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:40 am Post subject: Why are some cornets so much heavier than others? |
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As I've been comparing cornets over the last couple months, I've realized that there is a definite weight difference between them. For instance, my 1958 Conn Director is significantly heavier than the mid-70s Reynolds Medallion. It also has a darker tone than the Reynolds. The 60s-era King Tempo II 603 is kind of in between those, and the 30s Gretsch Pathfinder is somewhere in between those.
I'm sure design specs and manufacturing techniques have an impact, as well as perhaps where the metals come from, or placement/type of braces, or the amount of metal used. But still, one cornet design is not too terribly different in design from another, so is the weight difference intentional? I assume it is, and my guess is that it really boils down to the sound the manufacturer wants the horn to have.
Is that right, or are there other reasons? _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9088 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 11:07 am Post subject: |
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It's the weight of the metal. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 712 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Not as much difference between the weights of instruments as players.
_________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 642 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Why are some cornets so much heavier than others? |
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rhatheway wrote: | As I've been comparing cornets over the last couple months, I've realized that there is a definite weight difference between them. For instance, my 1958 Conn Director is significantly heavier than the mid-70s Reynolds Medallion. It also has a darker tone than the Reynolds. The 60s-era King Tempo II 603 is kind of in between those, and the 30s Gretsch Pathfinder is somewhere in between those.
I'm sure design specs and manufacturing techniques have an impact, as well as perhaps where the metals come from, or placement/type of braces, or the amount of metal used. But still, one cornet design is not too terribly different in design from another, so is the weight difference intentional? I assume it is, and my guess is that it really boils down to the sound the manufacturer wants the horn to have.
Is that right, or are there other reasons? |
Conn made really freaking heavy valves. Pull one out and compare it to the weight of the corresponding valve from a different horn. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 214 Location: Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | It's the weight of the metal. |
Yeah, but was a heavier weight metal used intentionally? To darken the sound or something, or just a factor of one horn maker getting their metals from one place and another got theirs from a different place? _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58
Last edited by rhatheway on Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 214 Location: Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Why are some cornets so much heavier than others? |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: |
Conn made really freaking heavy valves. Pull one out and compare it to the weight of the corresponding valve from a different horn. |
True. The valves on my Conn cornet are much heavier than the valves on my Getzen trumpet. Conn is all metal with bottom springs, while the Getzen uses plastic valve guides and internal springs.
That's definitely one factor, but that still doesn't explain all the weight difference or why? _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 214 Location: Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | Not as much difference between the weights of instruments as players.
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Yeah, yeah, we probably ALL need to get back on the rowing machines! _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 238
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Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I had an old Grand Rapids that was made around 1885. It played pretty nice. I did have the valves replated. I ended up giving it away about 20 years ago. It was pretty heavy from what I recall. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1482 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:54 am Post subject: |
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When I started playing back in the day I was handed a Czech(!) cornet,. It was HEAVY. Soon after this I got a UK cornet, a Regent, of about half the weight, so I felt. No other horn, and I´ve played a lot of them during more than 60 years, have been that heavy. Maybe it was made out of cast iron , Russian style? (You know, the Iron Curtain that once (?)blocked the view in Europe.
This doesn´t represent a political view - it is an observation. Were the moderators to grumble. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: |
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My Conn 9A Victor is the heaviest cornet I’ve ever picked up, for sure. The bell and leadpipe are copper, which may contribute to the weight. Huge bore (.485”) too, so I’d guess the tubing itself weighs a bit more than a smaller bore horn. It has a big, rich sound, and is capable of being played very loudly without losing its mellow tone.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 712 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 11:55 am Post subject: |
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OK, bear with me, I am getting to the science part of weight and brass instrument.
Way back in the '80's, I was a coal fueled power plant engineer at what was then "state of the art". My primary assignments were environmental controls and water treatment. The scale of equipment, if you have never been around power generation, is enormous.
One of my responsibilities,(actually, 2 units, so multiply by 2) was a large bag filtration system that very effectively trapped the small particulates (the "smoke") in n 13,440 bags each of which were 33 feet long. Each baghouse had 3 large fans, each rated at 14,000 horsepower. Each baghouse collected up to 75 tons the dust (called flyash) which had to be collected continuously. After collection, the flyash was prepared and sold as a construction material used in roads and concrete.
Getting the flyash cleaned off the bags was critical to controlling the power of those high horsepower fans, which at that time amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars in added fuel. I headed a study using high intensity sound waves (up to 140 decibels) to force the flash to release from the bags. The study was quite successful, and the plant still uses the "sonic horns" when they are allowed to burn coal.
OK, so we reach the point where acoustic principles creds come in. The "sonic horns" were essentially trumpet bells (some form of a cone) with a "mechanical embouchure analogue" consisting of a flat plate sitting on a circular base, through which high pressure air flowed through, causing the plate to vibrate and establish a "standing wave" (sound). As I was trying sonic horns from 4 suppliers, which were all SUPPOSED to be resonating at 600 Hz, I had to explain why the model with the LOWEST acoustic output was the most effective.
To get to the point of mass affecting horn output, my testing showed that the horn that worked the best did so with the heaviest cast bell, but also with a "concatenated" shape (more like a heavy cast trumpet bell, while the other models had rolled sheet metal simple. cones). What I also uncovered was the trumpet shaped bell had more complex overtones, and while the other horns had higher decibels at 600 Hz, the trumpet belled horn had considerably higher evergy at the first harmonic (1200 Hz) which coincidentally caused the filter bags to vibrate much more.
Anyway, when I got into this project, I had in my library a study headed up by Dr Arthur Benade of Case Western University, and sponsored and printed by Conn in the late 50's or early 60's.
Anyway, I was able to reach Dr Benade during my study, and he confirmed that the most efficient bell would be concrete, but it would not have much tone. So yes, a heavy instrument can more effectively created higher sound output. However lighter instruments create more brilliant overtones. Of course, where weight is added or removed will have more complex effects. Yamaha and other manufacturers offer lighter or heavier valvesets on some of their custom lines. Bach offers lightweight, heavy weight, and standard weight options on just about every part of the horn. The dedication of some of us (me included) to Strad valve sets of various weights and construction (solid brass vs Nickei balusters) approaches cult status. And then there is the bell and leadipe shape.....
Yes it makes a difference, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes disastrously
Sorry for the long digression. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 214 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | OK, bear with me, I am getting to the science part of weight and brass instrument.
Anyway, when I got into this project, I had in my library a study headed up by Dr Arthur Benade of Case Western University, and sponsored and printed by Conn in the late 50's or early 60's.
Anyway, I was able to reach Dr Benade during my study, and he confirmed that the most efficient bell would be concrete, but it would not have much tone. So yes, a heavy instrument can more effectively created higher sound output. However lighter instruments create more brilliant overtones. Of course, where weight is added or removed will have more complex effects. Yamaha and other manufacturers offer lighter or heavier valvesets on some of their custom lines. Bach offers lightweight, heavy weight, and standard weight options on just about every part of the horn. The dedication of some of us (me included) to Strad valve sets of various weights and construction (solid brass vs Nickei balusters) approaches cult status. And then there is the bell and leadipe shape.....
Yes it makes a difference, sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally, sometimes disastrously
Sorry for the long digression. |
Good explanation (but hey, I like explanations like this that digress into the scientific realm).
So, the heavier horns (like my Conn in my example may have a higher sound output (decibels?) but not the higher, more brilliant overtones like some of the lighter cornets (like the Reynolds in my example). Did I get that right?
And like I said somewhere else, getting to talk about physics (ie.e, standing waves) and such on a musical forum, man... what a blast! Both literally and figuratively! _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 214 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | My Conn 9A Victor is the heaviest cornet I’ve ever picked up, for sure. The bell and leadpipe are copper, which may contribute to the weight. Huge bore (.485”) too, so I’d guess the tubing itself weighs a bit more than a smaller bore horn. It has a big, rich sound, and is capable of being played very loudly without losing its mellow tone.
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Now that is a good looking horn! _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1482 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 5:55 am Post subject: |
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No it isn´t. Obviously lacking that shepherd´s crook.' Is it even a cornet??
But I´m from the other side. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7014 Location: AZ
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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rhatheway wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | It's the weight of the metal. |
Yeah, but was a heavier weight metal used intentionally? To darken the sound or something, or just a factor of one horn maker getting their metals from one place and another got theirs from a different place? |
In the later 2000s, I began a friendship with Kanstul Musical Instrument Co. (defunct) in Anaheim, CA that lasted until they closed their doors in 2019. They had two models of trumpet among their selection that were very similar, using the same valve block and copper bells.
The 1500 was the first model to receive the Kanstul brand name. Its bell was fashioned out of .024" thick sheet stock. The second model in this comparison was the 1602, or 1500TW in the earlier years. It also had a copper bell, but it was fashioned out of .020" thick sheet stock. The two horns felt very different in the hand, the standard 1500 being obviously heavier. One might think that four thousandths of an inch of extra thickness should not make a significant difference in weight, but it did.
Foundries offer their product lines in all sorts of specifications and always have. Horn makers in the 40s and 50s had the same variations available to them as those that are on the market now. So, choices were made in those days, just as they are today. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | No it isn´t. Obviously lacking that shepherd´s crook.' Is it even a cornet??
But I´m from the other side. |
It has a shepherd’s crook, but it’s a small one in the forward section of the bell… All kidding aside, it IS a short cornet, though.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1861 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Keep in mind that many cornets use a "longer" valve block than trumpets so there is part of your weight. (I had this great idea of turning a Olds Ambassador cornet into a .468 bore super trumpet. Opps. It would have required a custom wider wrap bell and tuning slide.) |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1016 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | Keep in mind that many cornets use a "longer" valve block than trumpets so there is part of your weight. (I had this great idea of turning a Olds Ambassador cornet into a .468 bore super trumpet. Opps. It would have required a custom wider wrap bell and tuning slide.) |
Ran into the same issue when I was looking for replacement valves for my Recording trumpet. Olds cornets generally have longer valves except for the Olds Super cornet, which has Olds' trumpet valve block. It's often mentioned to have a fairly 'trumpetty sound' and while I kinda doubt that's just because of the valve block, I do recall hearing that added mass around the valve block darkens the sound somewhat. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1482 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | No it isn´t. Obviously lacking that shepherd´s crook.' Is it even a cornet??
But I´m from the other side. |
It has a shepherd’s crook, but it’s a small one in the forward section of the bell… All kidding aside, it IS a short cornet, though.
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Ain´t gonna catch a sheep with that.....too small. Maybe make a stunned sheep stumble?
Not that the world is in need of bigger crooks. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9382 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2024 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | …Ain´t gonna catch a sheep with that.....too small. Maybe make a stunned sheep stumble?
Not that the world is in need of bigger crooks. |
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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