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heavyharmonies
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 563
Location: Urbana, IL
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 Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. Seems like there are not definitive equivalents across some brands.
The chart in this thread says that a Schilke 9 is the closest equivalent for a Bach 3C, yet when I did my searching looking for an equivalent for the trusty rusty 3C, I found the following mentioned:
13A4
13C4
14
14B
14A4A
Seems a bit far from a 9.
Nice job with the chart though!
-Dan |
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MUSICandCHARACTER
Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 267
Location: Indiana, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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On 2004-02-01 22:02, heavyharmonies wrote:
Interesting. Seems like there are not definitive equivalents across some brands.
The chart in this thread says that a Schilke 9 is the closest equivalent for a Bach 3C, yet when I did my searching looking for an equivalent for the trusty rusty 3C, I found the following mentioned:
13A4
13C4
14
14B
14A4A
Seems a bit far from a 9.
Nice job with the chart though!
-Dan |
Thanks Dan!
Interesting ... the sizes you posted when measured on the inside diameter are really different from the 3C. But the sizes are very relative. The cup, bite, rim contour, cup shape, etc. have a lot to do with how a mouthpiece feels. The chart just gives some perspective and help -- but playing the piece is always the definitive measure 
13a4 --> .660
13c4 --> .665
14 --> .670
14b --> .670
14a4a --> .673
9 --> .643
3C --> .642
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bubba
Regular Member
Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 35
Location: Rockville, MD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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The Bach 3C isn't really .642, it is more like .665.
"The Bach published measurements, in millimeters above, are taken from the Bach Mouthpiece Handbook, issued annually with a catalog of Bach/Selmer accessories. It is universally acknowledged that those measurements are all wrong."
see http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Bach-Schilke%20mpc%20chart.html
Also check out the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator at
http://www.kanstul.net |
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pfrank
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 3523
Location: Boston MA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Using the published measurements won't work too well because it depends of where on the curve the measurement is made from and there IS NO STANDARD! (That's why I like your "feels like" area.) Different depths on the same rim feel different, and of course every makers rim has a different bite. |
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the chief
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 1438
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, he is correct about a Bach 3C comparing to a Schilke 9 as far as rim size. The 3C is actually a lot shallower then the Schilke 9 also.
Check out the comparison at: http://kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM
Also, you'll notice the rim-diameter on the S9 is considerably larger then the S10B4. You'll find that there is not necessary a number-formula for Schilke mpc's that flows how you think it would. |
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MUSICandCHARACTER
Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 267
Location: Indiana, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
On 2004-02-02 16:14, bubba wrote:
The Bach 3C isn't really .642, it is more like .665.
"The Bach published measurements, in millimeters above, are taken from the Bach Mouthpiece Handbook, issued annually with a catalog of Bach/Selmer accessories. It is universally acknowledged that those measurements are all wrong."
see http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Bach-Schilke%20mpc%20chart.html
Also check out the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator at
http://www.kanstul.net
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The dallasmusic site has a great description. An some worthy quotes:
"Then there is Bach's legendary inconsistency...."
"So, even though we attempt to measure in the thousandths of an inch or the hundredths of a millimeter, other variables limit how precise and valuable a purely numerical comparison can be.
Go play on the mouthpieces!
Bach mouthpieces have changed. The dallasmusic site attributes this to worn and then new, replaced manufacturing tools. In other words, they start at the published spec and become larger and less precise as the equipment wears out.
OK ... sounds quite reasonable.
Then they go on to make their own chart with a fairly wide range of measurements. Very interesting.
Kanstul's interactive site is an amazing visual tool. Fun to play with and to compare the various mouthpieces.
But as I stated in my chart "Note: Please do not take diameter measurements too seriously. Most of the time the difference in columns can be 0.02 of an inch (0.5 mm). Not much really. The measurements are done for comparison purposes of relative sizes. Attributes such as cup depth, rim shape, bite, and backbore also make a big difference in how a mouthpiece plays and feels."
My chart does use the Bach "listed sizes." The actual may be different, and certainly two people measuring the inside diameter will come up with different measurements depending on where they think the rim ends and the cup starts.
Mouthpiece charts cannot be that accurate. They are for relative comparisons. If you were playing a Bach 3C and wanted close to the same size Schilke, then a 9 would be a good place to start! I know when I went shopping for mouthpieces, the sizes were very confusing. Giardinelli's website way back when (like 3 years ago) had a fairly good comparison chart. But it didn't even cover all the mouthpieces they sold. If you wanted to try a Parduba double cup, where would you look for a size that makes sense? Well, today you could look at their website. I just put as much of that information as I could in one place. I did this because I was frustrated.
I always recommend to those looking for a different mouthpiece to go to the local store and play some. Try a friend's (use a disinfectant before and after like Mi-T-Mist) or an instructor's mouthpiece. Or order them online from a place that will take a return if you don't like it.
The proof, is always in the playing.
M&C |
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Graham Altham-Lewis
Regular Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Music and Character,
Thanks very much - I got it from your website and have printed it off. It's good - well done! and cheers!
Graham |
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Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1833
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| As many mpc makers have pointed out - it depends on where you decide to measure the mouthpiece. I have yet to see a chart developed by someone who actually measured each mouthpiece in the same way. Of course rim contour has an impact on how large a mouthpiece feels. Trust me on this one however - there is a big difference between a Reeves 41 and an average Bach 3C. There is also a difference between a Bach 3c and a Curry 3C. The Curry 5C is a closer match. This is knowable stuff - any chance that one of the makers out there with a series of Bach scans could give the actual measurements (average of several current models of each size) - and compare those with actual measurements (measured in the same way) of some other mouthpiece brands. Even a real Bach / Schilke comparison chart of a few of the sizes would be useful. For example : I think the Bach 1 1/2 C and the Schilke 17 are pretty close (except for the differece in throat size and backbore) - but I have no way of proving it other than by playing them. |
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MUSICandCHARACTER
Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 267
Location: Indiana, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to everyone who has pointed out various problems with the chart. I have added all Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces including the custom series to the chart. I also linked to the dallasmusic.org "alternate" view of the Bach sizing and made some minor adjustments.
Thanks again to all of you for your constructive criticism! Let me know if you find other problems with it.
M&C
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