SC vs. TCE, Squeezing air

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject:

Judging by the number of views of my previous posting called SC/TCE-Pressed Lips, I have to believe others, besides myself, are interested in the answer to this question. To improve the chances of getting a meaningful answer, I wanted now to further narrow the focus and compare how the air stream is "squeezed" in SC vs TCE. I hope it is clear to most by now how the air is squeezed in TCE. In case someone is not clear on that, simply put, the air is squeezed between the top of the tongue and the top teeth/top lip. I compared this previously to a two-stage air compressor where the first stage of compression occurs between the tongue and top teeth and the second stage between the tongue and top lip. Now, here's what I'm trying to get a clear understanding on...In the older SC approach, where was the air being squeezed and were there two stages of compression? Can anyone answer this question?

Dave Converse · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject:

Ken, if you have the Superchops book, look at the diagrams with the arrows. They show lip compression or "air sgueeze" by pressing the lips together in the center, via the bunched chin moving up, pressing the bottom lip upward against the top lip coming down. In the high range, the lips are actually pushed up the front top teeth. The tongue is not really part of the air squeeze, other than to stay in contact with and support the bottom lip. How am i doing here, Kyle?

[ This Message was edited by: Dave Converse on 2004-02-05 20:59 ]

tptguy · Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:36 pm Post subject:

In SC, Jerry makes this statement, "The air is made to squeeze around the teeth and lips. This is exactly what gives you the greatest resistance to the air column, eventually giving much greater results than any other method...p.6"

By the time of TCE, I believe that Jerry realized the statement should have read as follows, "The air is made to squeeze around the teeth, tongue, and lips. This is exactly what gives you the greatest resistance to the air column, eventually giving much greater results than any other method...p.6"

As to whether this in-the-mouth compression is of one stage or two, I really don't have an opinion. I don't think I've heard Jerry discuss it either way. Perhaps thinking of it as two stages will help some people visualize it. I'm curious to hear.

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:52 am Post subject:

Well Dave, maybe now you can see why I posted this question. Like you, I have the SC book and thought it clearly showed pressing the lips together for center compression. After all, to compress the air stream, somewhere two surfaces have to press together. Kyle had pointed out earlier that the lips were NOT pressed together in the SC approach. That's when I raised the question, if the lips are not pressing against each other then what are they pressing against? As you can see, I'm still trying to get a clear answer to that question. If it was anyone but Kyle saying the lips weren't pressing together, I would simply say they were wrong. Over time though, I have come to respect Kyle and his knowledge of all of Jerome's teachings. Klye seems to be saying that the tongue was used, at least partly, for air compression even in SC. It's not clear to me yet how that was true. I had just about decided that the air squeeze in SC was achieved by pulling the lips in against the front of the teeth, thereby forcing the air between the teeth and lips. It seems to me there are only three possibilities; either the lips pressed against the teeth, or the lips pressed against each other, or the tongue was more involved in SC than we previously realized. What about that, Kyle?

[ This Message was edited by: goldenhornplayer on 2004-02-06 07:54 ]

Dave Converse · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject:

<< Kyle had pointed out earlier that the lips were NOT pressed together in the SC approach.>>

Ken, when in doubt..............I defer to Kyle. His grasp on SC and of TCE is waay past mine. Heck, I get confused just eating bread, man.

I do think that, with SC, the tongue is wide and forward, which reduces the "plenum" effect in the mouth cavity. I guess, as the lips move up the front top teeth, the air IS squeezed around the top teeth, therefore, creating compression prior to the lips.

[ This Message was edited by: dave converse on 2004-02-06 18:41 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dave converse on 2004-02-06 18:54 ]

tptguy · Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject:

In both SC and TCE, Jerry has tried to explain how to get compression before the lips. If you work on Yoga the tongue starts to work like TCE; I can't make it work any other way. But, Jerry didn't explain it that way and, it's probably safe to say, didn't really see it that way at the time. He just recognized that all together, it started to really work. In SC, he tried to explain it in a combination of more traditional "lip understanding" plus the newer stuff. But, he realized that he was sending many people in directions that he didn't intend. As he analyzed his and his students' chops more he realized the added importance of interplay btw tongue, lips, and teeth. That's what he continues to work on to this day. As I've said before, some people get it better from Yoga, some from SC, some from TCE. I've needed two: Yoga and TCE, but that's been a great combo for me. Best regards, Kyle

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:42 am Post subject:

Thanks for that explanation Kyle. I think I'm going to move on beyond this attempt to understand what Jerome had taught in the past. Maybe it's even the case that Jerome is clearer now than ever before about what makes a great embouchure. It has been my observation that many of the great players have not been able to explain how they played and perhaps they themselves did not know. I think you and I have been blessed to be able to work with Jerome because we had something in common; we both had facial or teeth problems that stood in the way of playing like we wanted to. Along came Jerome, with an approach that made it possible for us to play like we had only dreamed of playing before. Like you, I am very grateful and this is the reason I want to share this with other players.

tptguy · Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject:

<<...showed pressing the lips together for center compression. After all, to compress the air stream, somewhere two surfaces have to press together. Kyle had pointed out earlier that the lips were NOT pressed together in the SC approach. >>

We'll need to keep in mind the difference between "pressing the lips" together and creating our primary means of compression "before the lips". As I've quoted Jerry above, the primary compression should come before the lips. Though people are quite aware of this TCE, the above quote is from SC. I'm not suggesting that there's no change in approach btw SC and TCE, but to my mind the basic idea is far more alike than different. The same is true for the use of the lips, far more same than different.

Here are some important quotes from Mr. Callet about the lips:

"Maintain a thick and fleshy feel in the lips in all registers."

"Learning how to keep your lips from losing their ability to vibrate, with ease in the upper register, will give you additional flexibility."

"The lower lip will be forward of your teeth, from the mouthpiece rim to the corners of the mouth. Never pin or hold our lower lip firm against the sides of the lower teeeth."

"Slightly relax your lip pressure to descend."

"The actual vibration of the lips will be made inside your mouth and travel over a very thick lip area before being blown into the mouthpiece cup."

As you now play higher, both lips will be pushing forward towards your mouthpiece enabling you to play in all registers without strain. ...Your lips must be full and thick and free to vibrate freely with a full rich tone."

I think that most people familiar with Jerry's previous approaches would expect the quotes are from SC. But actually, they are all from TCE. Best regards, Kyle

[ This Message was edited by: tptguy on 2004-02-10 00:58 ]