great lip sqeak

[tclement]

Hello,

Over the last month I developed a great lip squeak. The only problem is that it isn't in the center of my lips AND I don't have a desire to move my mouthpiece from the center.

I've decided to abandon this good lip sqeak and start over by concentrating on an air hiss from the center of my lips. I can get a lip sqeak very near the center but it is not nearly as good as the one I'm abandoning.

Any thoughts or suggestions ?

[_dcstep]

When you do the roll in excercises, experiment with center and where the squeak speaks (assuming it's not way out at the sides). The roll in is so exagerated at the beginning it will seem very unnatural. Stick with that exagerated, unnatural feel and experiment to make it sound. (Spend a lot of time in front of the mirror). You can't decide where to put your mouthpiece by us talking about it. You've got to move it around and see what works. Move it horizontally and vertically.

If your squeak is near the center that may well be where your strength lies. Why not at least try playing there? Most of us play off center a little.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[HJ]

Hi,

I treat the lip squeek as an exercise on its own. For me it has nothing to do with the roll-in, other then to have a starting point for a student when to start doing the roll-in exercises. If you can do the lip squeek, then you know that your lips BASICALLY do the right thing (if you can't, there is something wrong) and you are ready to do roll-in #1. But the rolled in air hiss is enough for the roll-in exercises. So, if your lip squeeks off center, that is OK, you can always try and move it more to the centre, but at least you know you are ready for roll-in #1. Just make an air hiss in exactly the same position as your lip squeek and gently put your mpc on the rolled in lips. You need to find out yourself were your 'sweet spot' is. Just move around a bit. If this is a bit off centre, that is OK, if you have to move your mpc a bit higher or lower, that's OK. Personally I put my mpc higher than in my normal playing, and it does not bother me at all, my normal playing is getting better and better without getting confused about where to put my mpc. So, don't worry and do not be concerned if you cannot make the squeek work on the roll-in exercises. I never have. I used this exact position, but if I try to make the squeek into a tone it never worked. And for that matter most of my students can't, and I heard a couple of them play high E's and G's this way, so they must be doing the right thing.
Bert

[_dcstep]

[LeeC]

TClement,

What kind of volume are you getting from your off center "good lip squeek"? Are you able to move the tone around some? Can you do scales etc.?

Sometimes I get a feeling that an off center position might help me improve upper register volume in a roll in formation. All I usuallty hear are statics though. Good statics but no serious tone from the off center formation anyway.

Just curious.

[_dcstep]

[tclement]

Hello,

I get good volume with the off-centered lip squeak. It sounds just like Jeff's example mp3 file. I can produce different tones depending on the amount of air pressure I use. I haven't tried scales since it isn't described in the BE book.

thanks for the suggestions and comments

Tim

[_dcstep]

Tim, have you tried doing the roll-in excercises off-center, in the same spot where you get your lip squeak? If so, how does it work?

Dave

_________________
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[ This Message was edited by: dcstep on 2004-02-09 15:37 ]

[HJ]

Dave, you wrote this in answer to my remark:


On 2004-02-08 09:30, HJ wrote:
I heard a couple of them play high E's and G's this way, so they must be doing the right thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

-This is why I like to try to "connect" the lip squeak with the roll-in excercise. My odds of hitting an easy G above high-C or even an easy dubba-C seems to go up when I connect the squeak and roll in. Admittedly, it's very strange and hard for me to do it consistently, but, despite this, it seems to be integrating into my everyday playing. Performance of the high-G has gotten much more consistant. -

I have a couple of students who connect the squeek with the roll-in, but to benefit from the roll-in, I tell them it is not necessary. It works as well without the squeek. My performance of the high G is much more consistant than ever, because I didn't have a high G and now I play up to double high C everyday., without even being able to connect the squeek with the roll-in!!!

The trouble if you try to connect it, is that your goal might get misty: the goal is not to play as high as possible in a rolled-in position, the goal is to be able to play rolled in, get control over it and retrain your muscles this way. The risk of forcing yourself to play this high every time you play rolled in is IMO way too big. I do not advocate this to my students. I do not restrain the ones who can do this, but I always have them go back to learning to play G top staff and learn to control this first. This high G is terrific as a motivator but not as a motion exercise.

Bert

[_dcstep]

Well, I consider either the lip squeak or the air hiss to be the "set up" for the roll in excercises. Jeff seems to say to me, "if you can squeak, then use that as a set up for the roll in, but if you can't just hiss." Here I think Jeff is connecting either the lip squeak or the air hiss to the roll in excercises. I agree that you could achieve a double C without ever achieving a lip squeak and that it's wrong headed to get too hung up on the lip squeak, BUT you need some sort of setup for the roll in, or you risk missing the "feel" alltogether.

Dave

[LeeC]

DCStep,

Was trying to learn some of the characteristics that Tclement has with his lip clamp squeek. What he does with it is his business. I have made no suggestions as to how TClement ought to continue. He answered my question and this was very interesting to me. Can't figure how his answering my question would be detrimental.

[_dcstep]

If you'll re-read your question, you'll see that there's an implication that one might lip squeak scales. I'm just saying that I don't think that's part of BE. To even ask about it will imply to some that they should be attempting it. I'm just warning not to think of it that way.

I'm hoping that you haven't taken offense. I'm just trying to keep the less experienced out of potential traps.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[tclement]

Not related to the orignal post, but I just got back from a Maynard Ferguson concert at a local highschool.

I've seen him every year for the past 3 years. The show was great. Maynard was great and so was the band. What an outstanding lead trumpet player Maynard has (Pat Hession).

Carl Fischer opened with a subset of the group. He was outstanding also.

Tim

[LeeC]

Thanks for the well thought out words Dave (DCstep).

Can surely appreciate the need to stay within the boundries of the BE format. My question to TClement was one I found irresistable.

I think a dedicated forum can become a tug of war between two agents; the one that wishes to promote freer discussion and the other that needs to curtail some posts as these such may lead to confusion, irrelevancy and sometimes downright mayhem.

So i walk the tightrope...

Haven't posted a bunch on this forum yet. Be that as it may here are some of my thoughts about BE. Take them as my own and not the Gospel on the matter:

Anyone who has some kind of two octave register or better MUST be incorporating a roll-in / roll-out technique. This is probably a physical law. If someone can show me another way to connect register besides the RI / RO I'm all ears.

Prior to coming to TH most of my embouchure experience came from Louis Maggio and Stevens-Costello systems. Might be innacurrate to say this but probably the Maggio is more of a roll out techique, and the Stevens is a roll in. There are other differences and characteristics to both.

In my early years playing the trumpet I found some success with register by learning pedals and a roll out embouchure though I didn't call it that because no one did. I still play this way today most of the time. And to this day my primary embouchure still leans more to the roll out side of the equation.

In later years, decided to develop a secondary embouchure that was initially started utilizing more of a roll in. Probably this is a matter of potential controversy as it might imply that I'm suggesting others make a sincere effort to try this technique. Not so. As this secondary embouchure developed it started to gradually learn to roll out as it descended. At the present time I feel that this newer formation is beginning to resolve itself to an area of possible neutrality or BALANCE between the two forces of Roll out and Roll In.

What ought to matter most to the average aspiring trumpet player is to develop basic musicianship. Often this requires playing notes above the staff. Jeff's BE system is the first plan I've seen that actually helps beginners get down the road before "ledger line attrition"* shoves these poor kids off the highway.

So, what happened to me was that in order to acheive a sincere, connected upper register I had to form my embouchure in such a way as to permit the lips to move back and forth as the register demanded. On my primary embouchure I utilized a rolling motion on my lower lip alone. On the secondary both lips became able to roll in / roll out in unison or tandem. During these formative years I was mostly working my chops at an unconscious level. No matter, I had to be rolling in and out in order just to pull the thing off.

Had a book like BE been around early on, say thirty five years ago, it probably would have put me where I am today physically in a lot less time.

So I suppose you can say that Jeff discovered Roll in / Roll out the way Newton discovered gravity. Neither was an invention, both are explanations ie, Isaac's apple would hit you or me just as hard as it hit him.

* "Ledger Line Attrition". You read it here first...

[ This Message was edited by: leesbrass on 2004-02-10 16:18 ]

[oj]

Ledger Line Attrition !

Great post, leesbrass!

I see the Ledger Line Attrition syndrom a lot "over here". There are only a handful few I know of, who really try to break out of it. And guess what, some of them are working dilligently on BE.

Keep us posted on your thoughts and experiences, leesbrass!

Regards,

Ole

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2004-02-10 17:14 ]

[_dcstep]

[LeeC]

The only reason i put this post is to see if i could do it while playing my twenty minute g (not a part of BE). So far the hardest part is hitting the shift key for capital letters.

six minutes...

seven min..

[Dave Converse]

Heh, heh. Always knew I had a good excuse for not having a lot of range. Now I know what to call it........."L L A."