"Superhorn" -- What's that?

[_dcstep]

The descriptive term "superhorn" is being batted around on another thread. I thought it deserved it's own discussion.

One poster has postulated that a "superhorn" is a horn with a large bore (say .470") and a large bell (with an ending measurement around 5 1/4").

I don't like using the "superhorn" word to describe this type of horn. The "super" part of the word leads to an implication of other superior qualities that the horn may not possess. All we're talking about is a large bore horn, which cover a lot of territory.

I'm occasionally guilty of using the term "boutique" when describing low volume, carefully made horns like Lawler, Blackburn, Wild Thing, V-Raptor, Eclipse and some others. In general, the build quality of these "boutique" horns is "super", BUT they're not all large bore horns by any stretch of the imagination. Still, I'd rather call a Lawler a "superhorn" than some horn of average quality that simply has a large-bore and large-bell construction.

Why don't we just call large-bore horns, large-bore horns? I see naive people using this "superhorn" term and I think it's misleading others by implying "quality" where it does not reside.

Just my thoughts...

Dave
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Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
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Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[MoonBoy]

I agree with you dave, "boutique" is a good term for them albeit hard to spell. Usually in the auto world a "supercar" is one that can approach or exceed 200 MPH or has some insane 0-60 time like 3.2 seconds, and usually costs $100,000 or more. The "superhorns" are never going to make playing higher that much easier or be give me the ability to play Carnaval of Venus, practicing might though and it's free! Sort of.
Labels are put on things by people who need labels, a super horn is any trumpet being used and played like any super horn should.

[MUSICandCHARACTER]

The original definition was mine:

[jgadvert]

I am pretty sure I was the first person to coin the term "super horn"
When I got my new horn a few years ago....I found that it made doing my job easier than any horn I have played(the list is extensive). In terms of range, projection, slotting, workmanship...just about every area I can think of. The only word I can use to descibe it's playability is super. The horns are so great..it's almost like cheating.

In most cases, horns like this are made by custom builders who sell far few than the mass manufacturers. I know that the maker of my superhorn takes great pride in his product and makes sure that each horn that goes out his door is superior in every way. He is a master who has worked (and understands the design) of just about every icon we have known. Schilke, Callichio, Benge..the list is extensive.

Most people don't need a horn like this(just like most people don't need a race car). For me..it was the right equipment for the particular job I needed it for.

[_dcstep]

Well, then my horn is a "superhorn" because it has a "twin-tube" leadpipe, unusual bracing AND it makes my playing so easy that it's almost like "cheating."

I truly believe that my horn IS a super horn, but applying the "superhorn" descriptor to it points out the problems with that nomenclature.

I suspect that the term will stay in use around here, despite my objections, but at least I've recorded my objection so that it'll be available on appeal.

Dave
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Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[oneeyedhobbit]

I'm a fan of your definition of botique horns dc, though I'm so acclimated to the term "superhorn" that now it'd be hard to break. I guess I've always considered superhorns to be those that are manufactored entirely by hand by one person, in low volume.

[pair of kings]

THINK, PEOPLE!!!


CLUE: THE LETTER H






a




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[pair of kings]

THANKS FOR STARTING THE THREAD.
-- MORE LATER.

[MUSICandCHARACTER]

I'm not sure "superhorn" is a great term. What happens in the next evolution of trumpets? Do we get "unbelievable superhorn"? But I must agree, the term is probably here to stay. "Boutique" is probably too mild from a marketing aspect.

A race car term "Modifieds"? How about "Specialized"? There are some terms used for other products. A good marketing company could brainstorm and find better ones. Most everyone on this board could find better ones! I always like when mountain bikes were called "fat tires." Fat horns? "Modified valved wind-driven large-sized pitch approximaters?"

M&C
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[JoeCool]

It's a piece of plumbing for cryin' out loud. All the hi tech design in a horn is useless unless there is a balance between player, mouthpiece and horn. I have a '63 Olds Ambassador. Depending on the mouthpiece I use and the way I set my embouchure up, it is either a dog or the best pipe since sliced bread.

To make a long story short, practice, find your own unique efficient set up and make sure your mouthpiece is balanced with you and your horn.

[_dcstep]

JoeCool, if you can't tell the difference between a fine horn and an ordinary horn, then more power to you. Ambassadors are inexpensive compared to Selmer Paris, so you'll save a bunch of money. That's great for you, but don't imply that the rest of us need to practice if we want a fine horn.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[Trptbenge]

Dave, Great thread! M&C I also agree that, for better or worse, the label "Superhorn" is here to stay. I want to talk about this subject without really offending anyone. While I think boutique and specialized horn are probably more accurate terms they do not light up peoples imagination as "Superhorn" does. I really believe that the Superhorn label began as a market tool to differentiate these high end, generally more expensive horns from pro-line horns like Xenos and Strads. Obviously, some of the horns , like the Callet Jazz, are geared especially to make the upper register much easier to reach and play in then say a "Strad"!

Does this mean everyone of these Superhorns are better horns then you could get from regular pro-line horns? Does anyone have an opinion?

Joe Cool! I am glad you are happy with the Ambassador. It was probably the best Student horn that was ever made. Many people will argue (me included) that it was equal or better then many pro-line horns of its day. It is great you found something that works for you. You are also dead on the money when you say that there has to be the right balance/combination of horn, player and mouthpiece. However, technology and tolerances in building horns have become even more precise and better then many vintage horns. You can argue that it is all brass but it's how the brass is used and put together that makes the difference. Just little variances here and there can make a bad horn good or potentially a good horn bad.

Mike



[ This Message was edited by: Trptbenge on 2004-02-11 23:08 ]

[cujazztrpt]

Theres no such thing as a Super Horn,,,maybe a super trumpeter who practices properly.
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[JoeCool]

May I clarify and re-phrase for the sake of dcstep.

The Ambassador I spoke of in my previous post is not the only horn I have. I was using that as an example. I have a Yammie as my main axe. But there is a point of diminishing return. My main point was this: If you go out and buy a sportscar that goes 140 mph, what good is it if the speed limit is only 65? All I'm saying is the rest of the equation has to be balanced and efficient in order to take advantage of the "superhorn". It doesn't exist for those who are unbalanced.

[_dcstep]

Well, I race my 5.0 Mustang and I've driven a Porsche at 155 mph with the top off. I don't understand why you'd buy something and not use it. (My cousin in-law stares at his Corvette and polishes it like crazy AND won't let me near the driver's seat. I can't understand that).

Maybe that explains why your comments are leaving me a little cold. I'm taking no offense, BUT I don't want anyone to think I don't sound better on my Selmer Paris than I did on my Yamaha Z. I bought the Selmer because it's more dynamic, more resonant and easier to play (after adjusting for its different size). Maybe I'm showing too much pride, so please forgive me if I am.

Ok, having said all that, I don't think that a trumpeter has to do the trumpet-equivalent of going to Skip Barber racing school and joining the Sports Car Club of America in order to be entitled to a superior horn. Undeniably there is some pride of ownership. There's always be someone that can play it better, but that doesn't mean that you have to "earn the right" to play a particularly good horn. I've got a good friend that just bought a Selmer Paris Chorus 80J because he thinks it sounds better than his prior Yamaha Z and Conn Vintage One. He really needs a lot of work on his breath support and getting the stress out of his throat, BUT he's playing solos in church and little restaurant gigs and getting out there. ANY horn he plays will sound much better when he opens up his throat and starts putting more air into his playing, nevertheless there's no reason that he shouldn't have that 80J.

Thanks for bringing the concept of horn vs. ability forward for discussion.

Dave

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[ This Message was edited by: dcstep on 2004-02-13 08:29 ]

[JoeCool]

Dave,

Whatever, dude. I never said ANYTHING about ability. It was about balance. If I sounded cold, you can thank yourself for your little frigid, ignorant retort to my initial post in this thread.

horn vs. BALANCE. If you don't have it, you are wasting your money on a "superhorn". But, if one wants a "superhorn", by all means get it. I just don't get the point of it if you can't take full advantage of it.

Joe

[ This Message was edited by: JoeCool on 2004-02-12 16:03 ]

[_dcstep]

Balance between player/mpc/horn. You need that whether your talking about the cheapest student horn and the very best custom horn. So, what's that got to do with the discussion of the thread topic??

(Edited by dcstep to remove perceived name calling).


Dave

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Selmer-Paris Concept TT w/ GR66S/GR66MS
Yamaha 731 Flugel w/ GR66FL
http://www.dcjb.com http://www.pitpops.com

[ This Message was edited by: dcstep on 2004-02-13 08:31 ]

[MUSICandCHARACTER]

Nomenclature is the problem. We have a category of trumpets that doesn't quite fit the usual specs. Superhorn has stuck somewhat, although it probably is a bad term. A "superhorn" is not for everyone. Some like a smaller bore, and a bit more resistance. Some will like a small bore, with a shallow cup mouthpiece to support 3 hours of high swing and jazz playing. The term "superhorn" sure sounds like other trumpets are not good enough.

This of course, is not true. I'm not sure we can stop the train, it is headed with some steam. And there is the problem of what to call this class of horns. Or maybe not. Giant bore trombones with huge bells are not called anything but bass trombones. But bigger is not better. It is not a Corvette vs. a Yugo. The comparisons are very close in many cases.

M&C
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[Trptbenge]

Joe Cool that was pretty rude and uncalled for. dcsteps analysis and comments are much more intelligent sounding, informed and specific then your posts concerning a student horn and balance. Please show some respect and manners. Up until your most current post dcstep has not been rude or disrespectful to you. Besides, his many posts over the years has shown him to be insightful and knowlegable about horns and playing techniques.

So, Joe Cool please chill out!

Mike
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It's the sound that makes the difference!

[livertwist]

Well if there's one thing I like, it's a fiery thread! Just wait till someone mentions the "z" word and this thread will be yanked faster n' you can spell "boutique". But I digress.

Superhorns. In my opinion (which is occasionally humble), you can't really define them. It's not a dollar amount or a brand or a particular bore or style. It's a horn that makes YOU play better and/or sound better than you do on another/your current horn AND (the AND is important) is also one that you happen to prefer. If you want me to stick to the car analogy, fine. I prefer the look of BMW to Mercedes. There are many great Mercedes as there are BMWs. However, *I* would buy a BMW (actually, I couldn't afford a new one, but that's not the point). Just my preference. So to me, a new BMW would be a supercar. As would a new _______ (insert name of horn you like here). If it happens to be an Ambassador or a Selmer or a Bach or a Yammie, the point is, that's the horn that you sound amazing on and you cherish. Trying to say that a horn is going to make anyone play better on it just because it's big bore and costs over $1500 (US that is, Canadian money is like Monopoly money.. but it's getting better is like saying that just because I get a $300 haircut, I'm going to get more girls. Unfortunately, it ain't true. Everyone has a way of playing, a bore they usually prefer, a mouthpiece, even a color/style they like better. You could gussy up any horn and make it purdy and it might work for Doc or Al or Maynard, but if it don't work for YOU it's not worth the cost of its case.

...and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what Joe is saying is that a $300 horn is as good as a $3000 horn if you don't practice (as in you'll sound as crappy on either). Plus, if you're using a trombone mouthpiece, it's likely not going to help either.

Oliver