Lip setting for crescendo, hold till empty and tonguing

pmj · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject:

I am an optomistic new user of both TH and BE (I received the BE book 5 days ago). I must say that this forum is a great resource which has already helped me to understand BE better.
I would define myself as a comback player who is still struggling with the same embouchure issues I had when I was in high school 30 years ago. I clearly have a receded jaw set up, Farkas type embouchure which is nothing like Roll-in or Roll-out.
I have read the book a couple of times in its entirety and have begun with the 4 month lesson plan on page 137. I am having some success with the roll out pedals and the lip clamp and squeak. I have not progressed to roll in #1 yet although I have been able to get an E2/G3 when I tried it yesterday.
I would appreciate some advice on the lip setting to use for the crescendo, hold to empty and tonguing exercises. I haven't seen any direct advice in the book, but I may have missed it. My gut intuition is to use my old setting and modify it (ie. pull the top lip down and open the jaw to tongue) Should I use my old setting or modify the roll in or roll out. In fact I cannot really tongue properly through the teeth because the bottom lip is in the way due to the underbite (receded jaw) position. I do not have TMJ and can push my jaw forward when needed although this feels strange.

Thanks to anyone who can help.

regards,

Pat

mcamilleri · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:52 pm Post subject:

You may be getting a bit ahead of yourself, and should stay on the first lesson plan until it is mastered. Until you can do roll-in #1 and #2 you won't be able to use the new setting on any of the exercises anyway. Trying the exercises on your old setting will no doubt show you how limited it is, but also might teach you some more bad habits.

You've only been going on BE for 5 days or so. I suggest you wait until you can do the tongue-on-lips exercise at the bottom of the Roll-in #2 exercise before you try the crescendo and tongue-on-lips.

You can do hold-till-empty now without causing any problems.

Don't spend too much time on BE. 10-20 minutes per session is enough at your stage, plus time holding the lip clamp. Spend the rest of your practice time on technical studies and music, on your normal embouchure.

Michael

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-02-22 19:55 ]

Larrios · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:09 am Post subject:

Hi Pat!

Welcome aboard!

As to your question about the hold till empty, crescendo and tonguing excersises, I would go for whatever works best for you at this point. That's likely to be your normal way of playing. These excersises are not directly about expanding range of motion, although as you progress, you will incorporate elements automatically. Hold till empty is mainly to warm up your breathing engine, the crescendo excersise teaches you to link volume control and time and the tonguing excersise is a way to improve general lipposition and will give you a better feel of what you're doing, it's a way to monitor lipposition. It's all in the book more detailed. That things will feel strange in the beginning is alright, that's normal. They are just excersises. Keep in mind to use them indirectly in relation to your normal playing. If you make sure you don't force anything, you should be OK.

Michael, I got a bit confused by your post. You advise to stay at the first lesson plan untill it is mastered, which makes sense to me, but in which other way than your normal playing setting can you get started? You suggest to wait with crescendo and tongue on lips (which are in the first lesson plan) until you can do the tonguing excersise of roll in #2 (which doesn't come into the picture until lesson plan 4). I got lost there...

Ko

mcamilleri · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:02 am Post subject:

OK, Ko, you caught me out. It's a fair cop. That will teach me to post without a copy of the book next to me.

In any case, going to the 4 month lesson plan after 5 days of BE is too soon. If my memory is correct (still don't have the book next to me - oh no!) the 4 month lesson plan starts to do crescendo #2 and tongue-on-lips #2? Neither of these should be seriously attempted at this stage.

Sorry for the confusion.

Michael

oj · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:42 am Post subject:

Michael posted a very good one about his own development - see "Success at last".

A person with some playing experience can start on the second lesson plan (4 months) as Pat have done. But what I always do now, when people new to BE ask for advice is to tell them to BE patient! .. or like Michael say: .. back to the basics on BE, and diligently ... one step at a time.

So, Pat, go slowly, one step at a time!

To the crescendo. If you look at Caruso, you will find what he calls SLS (soft loud soft). It is exercise 6 in his book - called "Breath Control Studies". There are some similarities between BE and Caruso - one is:

Just do the exercise!

This in itself will develop you. Do not think too much. Both Caruso and BE are indirect methods - Pat, read page 56 and 57 again - and keep doing lesson plan on page 137. Then after a month or two, move to page 138 (next lesson plan). Good luck!

Ole

pmj · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject:

Michael, Ko and Ole

Thanks for all the advice, particularly the reminders to be patient. I am sure I will have more questions and concerns as I work through the BE material. I have not looked at all the other options (like Caruso for example), but BE seems a good fit for me and I am encouraged by what I am reading on this discussion forum. It is really encouraging to know that improvement is possible with the intelligent application of effort.

Pat