Double pedals on normal embouchure

[mcamilleri]

You guys have heard some crazy things from me in the past, but be prepared, this is the wierdest by far (especially the last bit). Don't try this at home unless your BE chops are well established.

I have managed to play the double pedals, double C down to F#, on a "normal" lip setting, i.e. both lips inside the mouthpiece cup, with the lips in a fairly neutral position of roll-in/roll-out, with firm, not flabby, lips, and without bottoming out on the mouthpiece.

I wasn't trying to do this, they just came out by accident when I was trying a high pitched (high C and above) roll-in/lip clamp. I set up the lip clamp, blew an air hiss, and then tried to find a high pitch on the horn. As I released the roll-in a bit, out popped a double pedal C, clean and clear. A few attempts got the chromatic scale down to the F#.

After a few attempts, I did the Roll-in #4 High C to Double pedal C jump like this, on dry lips, with no more lip movement than slurring form low to middle C. The top and bottom lip stayed anchored in the same place on the mouthpiece from the top to the lowest note. Freaky!

Another wierd setting I also found was setting up a lip clamp, maintaining the roll-in, and then blowing a double pedal C in a lip clamp position, almost fully rolled in. I found that in this setting the pitch was controlled by the air-speed, so I just backed off the air, and the pitched dropped like a stone to the point that I could feel and count each individual pulse of air coming out of the lips. I estimated the pitch at 4-6 Hz, which is approximately Double-Double-Double pedal C.

So what use is all this? I have no idea! Any (polite) suggestions?

Michael

[_dcstep]

Wow. Does the double-pedal-C resonate when you play rolled-in? Being able to play rolled in down that low shows that you've really developed a super flexible embouchure, which I think is a big part of what BE does.

As for doing the RO without the lip coming out of the cup, I think that's a natural progression that many of us will experience. I have. I started with the bottom lip on the outside of the rim, but as I did #3 and #4 it's moved into the cup with no loss of resonance. You're way ahead of me on that RI double-pedal.

I don't think Jeff sets these out as "goals". They just happen for some of us. For others, they may not happen, but that's probably not important.

Is BE helping your normal playing? I'd guess so, but I'm always curious to hear how it's integrating into "real" playing for various players.

Dave
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[HJ]

Michael,

Whahahaha, that sounds really freaky, especially the double-double-double part, you sure you aren't blowing a didgeredoo or something .

I have not been able to do the double pedals on a normal setting, nor am I aiming for this, because one of the goals of playing the double pedals is to get the feeling of playing with unlocked corners. Playing the double pedals the way Jeff discibes them gives you this. Maybe the 'focus' part of the double pedals is something you can do with a normal setting, too.

The strange thing however is, that when I do roll-in #4 (BTW you are one of the first people I heard practicing these, I do them everyday) the roll-out part is what gives me the best roll-in sound and feel. Sometimes it is hard to start on a high C rolled-in (I play roll-in #4 at the end, so I am a bit tired by then), but when I slur to the double pedal C it is not so hard to go back and have a better sound on the high C. To me , when I finally got to the point that I could play RI #4, this was proof that roll-in and roll-out are two sides of the same thing, they really enhance each other and belong together, which is weird, because they feel and look totally different, and yet, in a way they don't, and you are the first person that proves this by playing double pedals rolled-in, jeezz, still don't believe what I am hearing, tss, tss, tss...

Bert

[mcamilleri]

In reply to Dave:

The double pedal C does resonate - it is not as strong as in the full roll-out position, but has that same barking quality.

It was not a natural progression for me at all. My normal roll-out has a big fat rolled out lower lip outside the mouthpiece, and I never even attempted to use less lower lip on roll-out #3 or #4. I just stumbled onto it yesterday. Playing my friends trombone for a couple of hours over the weekend may have contributed...

As far as my normal playing goes, I really don't know what that is anymore. It has been more than a year since I played in an orchestra or band, and my playing over the last year or so has mainly been in a rock band at church, which is all improvisation. Since breaking my jaw so many things have changed that I really don't have a point of reference anymore for 'normal' playing.

I used to play by smile, stretch, and pressure, and I don't anymore. My overall impression is that my tone, power, and endurance have improved. My range has probably improved, as I can play higher than before, but I have not 'tested' that in a big band or live setting, which is really the only place it counts. My tonguing and attacks are a weak point at the moment - I'm working hard to fix that now.

Michael

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-02-25 17:00 ]

[oj]

Michael

Interesting!

Have you seen the new books by Pierre Thibaud?
Methode for the Advanced Trumpeter (Balquhidder Music)

It is 3 books, and in a thin book (one thick, two thin) called Daily Routine and Vocalises for Advanced Trumpeter, Thibaud says in the Introduction:

Major surgery forced me to rethink the way to play my instrument. Remembering the methods of Maggio, Stamp, Spaulding, etc., I had plenty of time in hospital to work quietly and could practice buzzing for hours. I found a way to play with ease in all registers (from low F# to double high C) thanks to the double pedal tones position.

When I say double pedal tone position I mean the lip thickness developed by this kind of practice. This thickness must be kept in all registers with the normal postion of the mouthpiece.

In the big book (page 17 - 2 he has some exercises called Flexibility exercises working from the double pedal range - a bit like some exercises in Trumpet Yoga, but with a lip position like you stumbled over Michael.

Thibaud says that these exercises are only for the advanced players, so people new to BE, forget it - stay on the roll-out as described.

Ole

[mcamilleri]

In reply to Bert:

The two types of double pedals I described, rolled in or neutral definitely, both have a very strong feeling of focus. There is nothing lose or flabby about the setting at all. All I can think of is that maybe I have managed to stay soft in the center, to allow the air out, but focused and firm around it so that I maintain control over the shape of the embouchure. Most people initial try to play pedal notes by going soft everywhere, so the lips just blow out and lose their shape.

I have tried playing double high C on every setting imaginable, without much success. I can do it on my 'normal' high range setting (not a full lip clamp), but it is far too weak to claim it as playable range (yet). Time will tell.

Michael
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[mcamilleri]

Well, I just had my lunch time practice at work, and things have changed.

I think I finally did roll-in #2 correctly for the first time. I managed to keep the roll in feel down to the 2nd last note, and then it flipped instantly to the double pedal on the last note. It felt very different to what normally happens. Hopefully this is the start of some more progress...

The freaky double pedals are still there, including the double pedals in the lip-clamp position. Just set up the lip clamp with a very light touch, blow, and out pops a double pedal note. Wouldn't believe it if I hadn't done it for myself.

BTW, if I had claimed to have played a Double-Double-Double High C, I would have about 1,000 flaming replies by now, along with a few death threats. Just goes to show how messed up we trumpeters are ~

Michael

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-02-25 17:57 ]

[oj]

This morning, I tried to "mess" with this roll-in-double-pedal-setting a little.....

I was able to play double pedals with kind of a roll in, but when I tried Roll-Out#3 (legato low C - double pedal C - low C), the mpc slided quite a bit up when going down. In other words I was not able to do like in Roll-In #2 (keep the same setting). There was something interesting with it though - like the "cushion feel" that Thibaud talk about. More later, if I "discover" anything worth telling about.

Ole

[HJ]

I think the reason why roll-in and roll-out eventually are much more alike than it seems at first, is the focus that has to be there in both ways. If I read the thing Thibaud describes, Michael, Ole and my own feeling when playing especially roll-in #4, this is the constant factor. In roll-out it isn't flabby indeed, it feels strong and focused, and in roll-in the focus is the same. Rolling out makes rolling in possible, and if you succeed to keep the focus, then I evrything can happen, from double-double-double pedals to double-double-double C's, and at that point the whole trumpet community will be flooding the BE forum, begging for some advice. Oh well...just start rolling in and out, ya know...

Bert

[mcamilleri]

In reply to Ole:

Try doing it on dry lips, and do roll-in #4, not roll-out #3. It will be easier - trust me!

What I find is, starting at high C rolled in, the note can flip to double pedal C with the lips touching EXACTLY the same part of the mouthpiece rim as on the high C. If I allow the lips to slide even the smallest bit out of the mouthpiece, I cannot then regain the shape, and the double-pedals don't emerge. There is NO intermediate pitch or lip position, and no pulling away of the mouthpiece. One second I am playing the high C, and a split second later, the double pedal pops out clean, with only a tiny movement in the lip centre.

Have fun!

Michael

PS We need Smilies that show rolled in and rolled out positions!