E-bay return

tomsak · Regular Member Joined: 31 Mar 2002 Posts: 40

I would like some opinions on what constitutes a fair e-bay return. I recently purchased a prewar Besson Flugel that is not a Bb horn. The seller will take the horn back but wants me pay all e-bay, paypal fees and freight costs. I guess I am probably lucky to get a refund at all. The item number and short description of the situation below:

Original auction id:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3703769058&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6

Besson Flugelhorn

tomsak
Regular Member

Joined: Apr 01, 2002
Posts: 13 Posted: 2004-03-10 23:50
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I recently purchased a Besson Grand Prix Flugel serial number 63xxx. The horn plays extremely sharp and when I pull the tuning pipe out about 4.5 inches I can get the lower range of the horn in tune but as I ascend the scale the horn continues to get sharper. I pushed the lead pipe almost all the way in and voila everything is in tune! Problem is this makes this Flugel in the key of B!!
I am wondering if with an instrument this old that perhaps a different reference than A=440 was in use or was there a different tuning standard then? Does anyone know if Besson made a Flugel in the key of B? I love the tone of this horn and purchased it to replace my Yamaha 635ST which was originally modeled on an old Besson horn.
Any information about this is appreciated!

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nieuwguyski
Veteran Member

Joined: Feb 07, 2002
Posts: 153
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Posted: 2004-03-11 11:46
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There was indeed a different pitch standard years ago, now typically called "high pitch." It was largely abandoned early in the 20th century, but the British brass bands held onto it much longer -- until the '70s, I believe. It does sound like you have a high pitch flugel there, which presents quite a problem. To bring it down in pitch you'd need a longer leadpipe and longer valve slides, which would probably have to be custom made at great expense. Even then the intonation might still be wonky. I think you have a conversation piece there but not a playable horn -- unless you play ballads in lots of sharps.
_________________
John N. Nieuwguyski

Any opinions about proper procedure, what to expect etc, on a matter like this is appreciated.

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Sounds to me that the flugel is exactly as described... "A very rare find and excedllent for a collector" (sic). I think that the seller is being quite fair in accepting the return at his conditions as stated.

The obligation is always on the purchaser to ask questions or otherwise seek to inform himself prior to committing to purchase. Remember, Ebay IS and auction and it is always "buyer beware", unless deliberately misleading or fraudlent claims can be made. I don't see that as the situation in this case.

The issue will now be, of course, for you to be able to have some degree of confidence that the costs "quoted" for the cancellation fees are indeed accurate (should you elect to return it).

Edit: At least the dreaded "Bessons" did not show up on the bell photo!
_________________
Schilke B1 (GR 66***)
Getzen Eterna 800 LB (Sparx #4)
Jupiter 846L (Jupiter #7)

[ This Message was edited by: Tootsall on 2004-03-17 16:27 ]

heavyharmonies · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:42 pm Post subject:

I agree 100%. I've made "D'oh!" purchases before and not had the option of a return. I think the seller is being completely reasonable.

-Dan

Dano · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject:

I have a Bass Trombone playing buddy who has the same problem with his 1st position!! He has a beautiful old horn that was refurbished just before he purchased it. Luckily for him he can tweek most back into todays standard.
Go figure!!!

tomsak · Regular Member Joined: 31 Mar 2002 Posts: 40

Please don't misunderstand me, I do appreciate that I can return this horn but at the same time all the Flugels listed on e-bay except one make no mention of the key of the horn. None of the Flugels listed on the Trumpet Herald marketplace state the key of the horn. I believe that it is generally assumed that if the key of the horn is not stated that Bb is the default. I feel that this case is somewhat grey. I guess I now know and everyone else that is in the market for a vintage Besson Flugelhorn or other vintage horn should know to ask about what the key the horn is so that they can avoid the situation that I ended up in. Also there is no way I would put this horn on e-bay or the Marketplace without addressing the key issue though I am sure that the chance that it would sell would greatly increase without disclosing that information.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

sure its not a g horn?

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

BTW I think he is being fair with you.All he is asking is that you pay for your own Ignorance.As a seller I would have done the same thing.Of course I would have probably marked it in the ad as a b horn if I would have known it.

As a buyer I kind of feel like you do.I would have naturally thought it was a b flat horn and would have been disappointed to find out it was a b horn.

Just chalk this one up to learning the hard way.

Good luck!

roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

I've had a fair amount of ebay transactions, and in this case I believe the seller feels a wee bit at fault given that he did not disclose the high tuning. I think his return policy is fair. Pay the charges and get out of the deal.

James B. Quick · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject:

I once bought a horn off of eBay that I thought was a marching trombone that turned out to be a bugle pitched in the key of G. I felt so stupid, it was nearly $500... I relisted it and sold it at only about a $25 loss.. jbqd

_gmdean · Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:20 am Post subject:

I think you hit the nail on the head with the question about a "different reference than A=440" Back in the 1930's some Orchestras in Europe tuned to a different reference (A=435 I think but am happy to be corrected). Last year my girlfriends mother who is a flute player spent ages hunting down a flute with the key layout she has used since she started playing in the 1920's (there were two different key layouts for flutes in those days) only to find it was tuned to the wrong version of concert pitch for all the orchestras/bands she plays in. Since this is a Besson Horn I would suspect it was made for export to the European market with a different reference of concert pitch.

There is some history about this at:
http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199804/1998.04.05.05.html

Mark

tomsak · Regular Member Joined: 31 Mar 2002 Posts: 40

I contacted the seller and he is willing to take the horn back minus $100.00. Purchase price was $1000.00. The horn had been up for auction earlier and I had bid to $1450.00 and never met the reserve. I think this is fair but the whole situation met an interesting twist. I have been in the market for an old Besson Flugel for quite awhile and when this horn proved to not be a true A=440 horn I proceeded to look elsewhere. I went Dillons site and found a vintage Besson Flugel in great shape for $2000.00. Taking Tootsalls advise about asking questions I e-mailed Dillons and asked if the horn was for sure in the key of Bb and whether or not there were any intonation issues. They e-mailed me back and assured me that the horn was in Bb and intonation was as should be expected of older Besson horns. So I decided to purchase the horn and before I actually proceeded with the purchase I looked at the photo of the picture and noticed that the leadpipe was pulled way out as had to do to even get my horn close to Bb. I then looked at the serial number on the Dillon site for the horn and thought to myself, interesting that number is real close to the serial number on my horn. I checked my horns serial number and I was in shock to see that my serial number and the one for sale at Dillons were exactly the same!!! I contacted Dillons and this is the e-mail I recieved in response.

Tom,

"You are never going to believe this! I went today and researched this
serial number. I found out that it is not in the store. I mistook
another besson on the wall for this one. It belonged to S**** G** and
he was selling it through us. He then took it back, but in the paper
work shuffle, we never took it off the web. So this horn that we are
advertising is the one you have! Thank you for bringing this to our
attention. I have other older besson breveta flugels you might be
interested in. One serial number is 33343. Let me know! "

Unbelievable!! The only difference between the horn as advertised at Dillons and how I purchased it was that there was a third slide trigger added. Also Dillons was unaware apparently of the tuning of the horn as well as the guy I purchased it from due to the addition of the third trigger!? The horn sounds fantastic and is tune to itself but to get it to A=440 one has to push the lead pipe all the way just barely achieving a key of B horn. Also bear in mind that one can easily make a case that Dillons is as good as if not the best brass instrument store in the US and no one was the wiser there abt the intonation problems to my knowlege with this horn.

kesslermusic · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:47 am Post subject:

Do keep in mind though that eBay and PayPal will refund ALL fees to the seller if an item is returned or the transaction completed.

Personally, I only make people charge the shipping costs associated with the return.

However, the seller doesnt Have to accept a return at all.

Trptbenge · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:38 pm Post subject:

That is true a seller does not have accept any returns. That is a problem on ebay. Sometimes sellers really don't know the key of instruments. I have seen sellers selling C trumpets and not realize it was a C trumpet.

While you would think that a store like Dillons would check each instrument thoroughly and play it. It doesn't happen all that much. I don't know how many stores I have been in where the clerk didn't even play trumpet. So, it is not all that surprising. I would take the $100 penalty and be thankful. It could have been much worse.

Mike
_________________
It's the sound that makes the difference!

tom turner · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Before you send back a flugle that may possibly be fine, get ahold of a fluglehorn mouthpiece in the proper shank for the Besson fluglehorns.

Specifically, you need a flugle mouthpiece with the shank made for the straight, or FRENCH taper! Putting a standard fluglehorn mouthpiece (which is usually a "Small Morris" taper type) will make the horn play flat . . . even pushed all the way in!!!

1. Most folks are unaware that, unlike trumpet mouthpieces, there are THREE totally different mouthpiece taper philosophies still adhered to by the makers of fluglehorns!

2. Additionally, the average high school/college kid working in a music store may be an expert on some E-lect-tric guitar but is probably clueless to the fact that there are three versions of flugle mouthpieces.

3. Add to the mix that lots of folks simply go in and order a Bach fluglehorn mouthpiece in their favorite Bach rim and you have potential disaster lurking when the Fluglehorn in question is one of the makes that uses the French taper!!!

BTW, the standard Bach flugle "pieces" come standard with the "Small Morris" taper . . . and will sometimes even fit somewhat into a flugle leadpipe with a French taper receiver . . . but that sucker is going to be sharp usually when pushed all the way in!!! I doubt any music stores stock Bach fluglehorn mouthpieces in all three tapers . . . since most folks working in the stores wouldn't know anyway.

If your current mouthpiece has a French taper shank, it will fit almost ENTIRELY in the reciever . . . much more so than expected on trumpet (that's what they mean by STRAIGHT taper . . . it basically DOESN'T much on the outside of the mouthpiece)! That leadpipe will literally swallow most of the shank!!!

I'll bet that old Besson (which ain't really THAT old) will come right up in pitch with the correct mouthpiece!

Try my advice and save your $100.

You can order a proper mouthpiece for your horn, built on the popular Mt. Vernon Bach rims, from Flip Oakes. He's designed two of the most outstanding flugles ever made. Tell him what horn you have . . . he knows what you need and stocks all his mouthpieces in all three shanks. Not your average music store to be sure! His prices are reasonable too!

Here's his link: http://www.flipoakes.com

THE THREE TAPERS:

1. STRAIGHT (French) - Used on vintage Besson, Couesnon Kanstul CCF 925 and Flip Oakes fluglehorns.

2. SMALL MORRIS - Newest Kanstul 1525, Courtois, Latest "Couesnon," and Bach

3. LARGE MORRIS - Older Kanstul 1525, Callet, Yamaha, Getzen, Benge

Good luck! I hope this will solve your problem!

Heck, things could be worse . . . I talked to a person last week with the same problem on his "Queenie" (Couesnon). Heck, he sawed off part of the removable leadpipe. When that didn't solve it he had his local music shop "repairman" remove part of the outer tube enclosing the movable leadpipe to get in sharper. (Luckily he saved this un-soldered and undamaged part)

Now the poor guy has to purchase a NEW leadpipe and get the removed part of the outer tube reattached to get it to blow properly again!

THOSE DARN FRENCH BESSONS AND COUESNONS DON'T PLAY IN TUNE!

A true statement . . . when using a Small Morris taper mouthpiece (the Large Morris type won't even go in the Bessons and Couesnons)! I've heard it for years from some really fine players who didn't know and who were sold the wrong taper.

DARN, THOSE BESSONS AND COUESNONS PLAY IN TUNE!

A truer statement was never made . . . when using the right mouthpiece!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

tomsak · Regular Member Joined: 31 Mar 2002 Posts: 40

When I first recieved the horn I used a mouthpiece with a large morris taper which is what I use with my 635ST. When I encountered the tuning problem I immediatly came to the conclusion that I had the wrong taper mouthpiece. The seller of the horn sent me a Bob Reeves piece with the french taper and I also acquired a Curry piece with a french taper as well. Unfortunatly the problem remained i.e. lead pipe way out like 5 inches to get to Bb and then only in the lower register of the horn and with the leadpipe all the way in the intonation alignment throughout the range balances out but the horn in just on the cusp of key of B. I honestly believe after all of this that this horn was built to another standard than A=440. A high pitch flugel so to speak. I also noticed that the Besson is just slightly smaller than my 635 Yamaha which also leads me to believe that this horn is built to a different tuning standard. This whole excercise has made me really appreciate how fine the intonation is on my Yamaha is and the reason, and correct me if I am wrong, I ended up looking for an old Besson in the first place is that it has been my understanding that the 635 Yamaha is a copy of on an old Besson design.