The mysterious Cb

[Dimoak]

I was looking over a scales listing, and apparently, the Cb is an actual note. This really caught me by surprise, as I never realized such a note existed (after all, it's not present on a piano keyboard, which is where I derived alot of my understanding of notes). But Cb apparently not only has its own scale, but is part of other scales with less accidentals. I assume that the Cb is really just a B, but then, why wouldn't they just refer to it as a B? And apparently, the B scale is played differently than the Cb. So can anyone explain; is there something special about Cb, or was it just some sort of traditional way to express a B in certain conditions? Thanks for reading (and discarding my ignorance)!

[WaxHaX0rS]

There are just certain theoretical reasons that it's used. I don't know exactly why, but there are reasons. It's just the same as B. It's like Ab and G#, why not just one all the time? It would make sense, but there reasons, like I said I don't know them. Just know that when you see Cb you should play a B and be done with it.

[_londonhusker]

Hi,

Cb is a member of an elite club we call "white key enharmonics." Enharmonics in general, are multiple names for the same pitch. Similar to nicknames, one may be more appropriate in a particular circumstance than another. For instance, I am "Dave" to most of my friends, "londonhusker" to THers, "Mr. H" to my students, "Dad" to my children, "you SOB" to the driver behind me. Those names are rarely interchangeable, although they do represent the same person.

The most commonly seen enharmonics are "black key enharmonics" and include the following names representing the same pitch.... C#=Db, D#=Eb, F#=Gb, G#=Ab, and A#=Bb. The "white key enharmonics" have the following relationships..... E#=F, Fb=E, B#=C, and Cb=B.

When are they used? Enharmonic spelling appears anytime one speaks in terms of a diatonic scale, interval or key relationship, and rarely matters when counting halfsteps. For instance, if you were asked to spell or play a C7 arpeggio, you would naturally select the root (C), 3rd (E), 5th (G), and lowered 7th (Bb) of the C major scale. You wouldn't say C,E,G,and A#, because the A# is a raised 6th and by definition does not belong to that chord. NOW, transfer that thinking to a chord built one halfstep higher.... a C#7 arpeggio (key of C# or 7 sharps, where every note in the scale is sharped) would include the root (C#), 3rd (E#), 5th (G#), and lowered 7th (B). If the scale was called by its enharmonic name (Db major with 5bs instead of C# major with 7#s), it would be a Db7 arpeggio we would play and it would contain a root (Db), 3rd (F), 5th (Ab), and lowered 7th (Cb). Notice how each step of the arpeggio shares the same pitch, but uses a name appropriate for the key it belongs to... C#=Db, E#=F, G#=Ab, and B=Cb.

Hope this helps!

Dave
londonhusker

[samlg]

harps are tuned to Cb, which i think is an interesting thing to bring up during the dull moments at parties.

another one is augmented IV. the augmented IV of C going up is F#. the augmented IV of C going down is Gb.

have fun, sam

[trumpetchops]

I believe that it has to do with tuning.
You have to look where you came from and where you are going.
The scale is tempered to make all notes equal. Like on a piano. Playing truly in tune doesn't work on a piano.
Playing in Cb is different tuning than B

Some day take a piano that you don't care about and tune it.
Do just one octave and tune fifths until you come back to the note that you started on. You will have trouble on the last note.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Nice post, londonhusker.

To address a couple of other issues:

The intonation ramifications of C flat versus B natural are a secondary issue. Because typically C flat will have different harmonic implications then B natural, in a particular key, they may have slightly different pitches. However, I don't think we can say that intrinsically C flat and B natural have different pitches. It all depends on the context.

As for the larger issue of why notes have multiple names, generally the correct spelling of a note will be clearer in two respects. First, it will give a better sense of how the note functions in the key. In C major, if you see an F#, it is very likely a sharpened fourth degree, part of a chord tonicizing G. But what the heck does G flat mean? Secondly, usually chromatically altered notes in a key resolve in the direction of the chromatic alteration. To use the same example, in C major usually F# will resolve to G. To use G flat instead would require writing G flat followed by G natural. This is cumbersome and hard to read.

I actually get quite ticked off when people use the "easier" names for notes (usually this means avoiding C flat, F flat, E sharp, and B sharp) rather than the correct spelling. When you know the rules and you have spent enough time looking at music to be able to instinctively see patterns, wrong spellings are actually much harder to read. I played a piece last week that had a very rapid passage that was quite aggravating until I realized that the written F natural was, in fact, an E sharp. Then the pattern of the passage became quite clear and I had a much easier time getting my head around it.

These things happen to you when you do a doctoral minor in music theory...

[Dimoak]

Thanks alot for the responses! Like londonhusker said, I sort of suspected it might have something to do with arpeggios and just general style. For instance, when playing a Gb scale, when going along the "root, whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half etc." pattern, it wouldn't make sense to endup playing a B where you should be playing a flat, so they just wrote in a Cb to make the scale look uniform. But yeah, whenever I for some reason will see a Cb, I'll just play a B and not give it any second thought. 'Cept if I'm asked to play the Cb scale, which shouldn't be a B scale 'cuz the B uses sharps instead of flats.....just a good thing to keep in mind. Thanks again!

[LeeC]

I did a whole show once that was transposed to help the singers. If a song had less than six sharps in it I felt lucky. Most of the time i'd be scratching my head thinking "Did the last key change include a B sharp or not?".

The way I understand it is that you use sharps or double sharps for accidentals when you're in keys that have sharps. Flats and double flats in flat key signatures. Key of C is a toss up but the arranger should stay consistent, ie no mixing of flats and sharps if possible.

As for me I don't much care what the purists say about proper musical syntax but then again I say the word "ain't" a good deal. Also empty my water key on the French Horn section fairly often...

[flugle-me-elmo]

I think the instances where Cb and B natural would be actually different pitches (to some degree) might be in the following circumstances. When playing the third of a chord, I believe that to get the proper resonance, you would play the note slightly flat (I forget the exact cents) from its A440 tuning. This is true for all of the pitches relative to a key (less so for the perfect intervals, more so for others) Therefor, depending on the key you are playing in, and your part relative to others, for proper resonance you would not only spell the note Cb based on the chord it is built in, but the pitches for that Cb could vary just slightly based on the key played.

Just my two cents,

Chris

[Nonsense Eliminator]

leesbrass --

I would have to disagree about how accidentals should be handled. In tonal music, usually one can explain a note requiring an accidental as being an alteration of a diatonic pitch. Its notation should always reflect that. For instance, in F major, it is quite common to tonicize or modulate to d minor. This generally involves a C# somewhere. Notating this note as D flat would confuse matters greatly, particularly the C# is presented as part of an A major arpeggio. A-D flat-E looks funny; A-C#-E is much clearer. There is nothing wrong with mixing sharps and flats; the correct spelling for a C# diminished seventh is C#-E-G-B flat. Spelling the B flat as A# implies an A# diminished seventh, which is the same notes but resolves in a different way.

[WaxHaX0rS]

It doesn't matter for sound reasons if somebody asks you to play a Cb scale and you actually think of a B scale when you play it. It doesn't matter if one has sharps and one has flats because they are written differently. For example, the 2nd in the B and Cb scales (respectively) would be C sharp and Dflat, which are the same. The 3rd would be Eflat and D sharp. Again, the same. It continues up the same way.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

FWIW, I don't think it's a good idea to think of C flat as B, just because it's an extra step to think about while playing. Same goes for all the other weird-looking notes like E# or F double sharp. In particular, when you're practicing scales and arpeggios and such, think of the notes in their proper spelling. The point of practicing those things isn't just training your fingers, it's training your brain.

[Strawdoggy]

I agree that changing enharmonically to an "easier" spelling is not a good writing practice. Especially for those musicians who are looking at the bigger picture when they play.

From a pedagogical standpoint, I never have a younger student think of a Cb as a B natural. I will tell them it is the same fingering, but not really the same note. Sometimes they get the "B natural" stuck in their minds and start playing Bs which should be flat due to the key signature as "natural"

[WaxHaX0rS]

You guys may be right, but I was just pointing out to him that if he in fact did play a B scale instead of Cb, nobody would ever know because they sound the same. He seemed to think that they would sound different when he said something like "if somebody asks me to play a Cb scale I'll play that because it has flats and B has sharps!" (I know that's not exactly what he said, I just didn't feel like hitting the back button and copying it exactly).

[Dimoak]

What I said was that if someone asks you to play a Cb scale, and certain notes aren't coming out flat, someone who's listening for that will likely be able to tell the difference. But since I don't plan on majoring in music, I doubt I'll ever be put through any such tests.

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[ This Message was edited by: Dimoak on 2004-03-23 16:45 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Dimoak on 2004-03-23 16:46 ]

[WaxHaX0rS]

Actually, it doesn't make a difference, but whatever, it doesn't matter.

[the chief]

What about a double-Cb?
_________________
"Your mind is your kingdom; that's where you exist"

[samlg]

someone who cant quite reach double c?!

sam

[hazmat]

Wait, you say not everything is coming out flat in Cb but everything should be flat. Anyway what about an Ab minor chord?
Ab Cb Eb