Naming Notes

[_bugleboy]

To all,

This issue was addressed on the old forum, but I don't recall that everyone was ever in agreement as to the best way of naming notes. More specifically what notes should be considered to be in the low, middle, high, double high range, etc. I have noticed, in at least two posts, confusion stemming from people not naming notes the same.

If we start with low C as the C one ledger line below the staff, then the rest of the Cs are clear. But does that make the G below low C a low G? If it does then the G above high C is a double high G and the F# is a double high F#, but the F in that range would be a high F. However, if the G above high C is a high G (as some would like to call it) then low G would have to be the G above low C. In that case what does the G below low C become? Some would say to call it simply that, "G below low C." But that, for no logical reason suddenly makes the whole naming process awkward and confusing. I have never heard anyone refer to the B below Double C anything other than double B. That means that everyone is calling the B below low C a low B. This should follow for the Bb, A, Ab, G and F# also. Low F would have to be the F above low C.

The Ska bands seem to have adopted a system that I personally favor of numbering the notes as they appear on the horn. G1, G2, G3, etc. Double C becomes C4. Granted, it's not as glamorous sounding as double C, dubba C or super C; but sure makes it clear what you're talking about.

Comments?

Charles Raymond

[tdromba]

Charles:

Here's what I'm used to and it seems to me a lot of people use:

G below the treble clef: low G
C below the treble clef: low C
C 2 leger lines above the treble clef: high C
G 4 leger lines above treble clef: high G
C one octave above high C: double C
G above double C: double G
C above double G: triple C

[_bugleboy]

[tdromba]

Hehehehe. I never said it was scientific!

It does hold for the low C, middle C, high C, though.

I suppose I would call the G in the staff 'second line G.' The other at the top of the staff would be 'top space G.'

I believe that one system of naming pitches begins with middle C as 'c1,' the next 'c2,' high C would be 'c3,' double C 'c4,' etc. Pitches below middle C are capitalized, so the G below low C would be 'G1,' the 1st G above middle C is 'g1,' the G on top of the staff 'g2,' high G would be 'g3,' etc. So the numbers just indicate the octaves in relation to middle C. Maybe someone can correct me if this is wrong...

[sean007r]

At a recent Maynard clinic I was told by Maynard and all the trumpet players that a "High" C is two octaves above a tuning C.

Therefore it is 4 lines above the staff before it is considered high?

Maybe that's just the Maynard method!?

~iii<0 Sean 0>iii~

[Lee Adams]

Bugleboy

One sure fire way to end the confusion is for everyone to just adopt the designations on the keyboard. C3,C4,C5 etc.

Other than that my view has always been. It just does not seem right that F above high C is a "High F" then the next step is called a "Double G" I never call anything Double until Double C. So the following would be the scenario for my method.

Nothing is high until High C.
Then the steps above high C are called as follows.
High D,E,F,G,A,B

Double C
Then the steps above Double are called Double D,E,F,G,A,B

Triple C
Then the steps above Triple C are called
Triple D,E,F,G,A,B

Quadruple C
Anyone that makes it to that has the right to make their own rules LOL LOL

[trjeam]

whatever happened to the propper terms? My teacher always refer to my my C's as C1, C2, C3, C4 . Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[Welk]

Im up to propose something

Do grave
Sol cental
Do central
sol aigu : G
Contre Do
Contre Sol

That is the french way to call it btw c:do and G:sol!

[_Don Herman]

Not saying it's wrong or right, but my research indicates the "double" names arise from two distinct references:

(1) Octaves numbered (or, use different case letters plus tic marks, or what have) based upon C. This puts our c''' = C3 = high C, two ledger lines over the staff. This system calls G over high C simply "high G" and the next C "double C". Everybody seems to agree on the Cs; it's the other notes which cause problems. In this system, "double G" is the one over double C (I'm too lazy to reckon up what line or space it's on) because the reference is alwyas the C below.

(2) The second time a note appears over the staff starts the "double" range. The first note over the staff is G (on top of the staff) and thus the next G is "double G". The first F over the staff is the one over high C, and is simply "high F" because it's the first F _over_ the staff. This is the system used when I first learned the trumpet (not that I ever really did, or will). Double C is still double C, but now the G over double C is triple C, rather than double C. But, the F below is double F in this system, because it's the second actually over the staff. Clear as mud?

Every time this comes up, we all seem to go round and round to create a system, only to have newcomers (or die hards unwilling to learn new tricks) who come on a thread going "what note was that?" I think Charly had a good scheme, though (of course) I've forgotten the details. It's in the first post of this thread, and is based upon the Ska system, I believe (and that's all I know about Charly's approach to naming conventions, and Ska in general ).

FWIW - Don

_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-01-06 23:47 ]

[Welk]

Ya, you are right Don! That way if you say you are trying to play an high C, it looks less hard than trying to play a double C (same note in different language). I think just the way we name it can discourage poeple sometimes. I'm not sure if you'll get my point: always talking about Double note for a new player may sound like these "double" note are pretty high and hard to play and it isnt true. a"double"(the one over the staff) is kinda easy to play. But when a student try to play it, he will tell his self this is a double note and will associate this to hard. Im not sure if any of you get my point as i think i didnt explain my self clearly but if you get it please let me know. It is a kind of trumpet psyco! Like" If you think it is hard, it will be hard"
_________________
Nicolas Marcotte

52' Olds Recording LA
Wick gold 4X

-=0=-Music is what gives us the beat, but it is also what makes beat our heart -=0=-

[_bugleboy]

Welk,

Your point is well stated and taken. My whole point in posting this thread was to suggest that brassdom's note naming system is inconsistent, not universal, inaccurate, illogical and cumbersome. I was offering a naming procedure that would,

1.) make the lowest note on the horn have a "1" after it, as in F#1.
2.) The next octave F# (first space) would become F#2, etc.
3.) And this would be done for all notes as they exist on the horn.

Double and triple would no longer be used at all in referencing notes. There would be no "low," "middle" or "high." A double C would simply become C4 and there would be no confusion about whether G above high C is a double G or a high G. It would simply be G4!

Although this approach would lack the glamour of "double," "triple," "super," etc. being affixed to a note for identity, this naming method is logical and is the simplest, most accurate possible (read that as "That I can think of.").

The terms "double" and "triple" could see service for naming notes in the pedal register. Who cares what you call those notes anyway!

Your witness!

Regards,

CR

[gappingr]

Just for fun, how about a system a mathematician or computer programmer would use...starting with zero and choosing C as the octave definition.

Ocatave 0 (Pedal C thru B below the staff)
C0, D0, E0, F0, G0, A0, B0

Octave 1 (C one ledger line below the staff to third line B)
C1, D1, E1, F1, G1, A1, B1

Octave 2 (third space C to B one ledger line above the staff)
C2, D2, etc

Octave 3 (high C to B 5 ledger lines above the staff)
C3, D3, etc

This actually works out nicely, since it takes care of naming the notes below our "low C" with and keeps all the notes in each octave associated with the C.

Not that any of this really matters....I don't imagine we'll ever actually have a consensus anyway!

Rob
_________________
Rob Gappinger

One needs only two tools: WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and should, use WD40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the tape.

[trickg]

Ok, I call

First ledger line under staff C, low C
G under low C I call Low G
G in the staff is First Line G, or G in the staff
C in the staff as C in the staff or Third Space C
G on top of the Staff simply G or G on the Staff
C two ledgers above the staff is High C
Every thing above High C is Double then the note name.
C above High C is Double C
Everything above Double C is Tripple, then then note name

This is what I've always used and what most people I know use as well. I didn't realize that there was confusion about it.


(a note to Sean: on the back of Maynard's "Body and Soul" album one of the tunes is described as "and featuring the Double High C". This refers to the note one octave above the two ledgers above the staff High C)

_________________
Patrick Gleason

[ This Message was edited by: trickg on 2002-01-16 12:58 ]

[ This Message was edited by: trickg on 2002-01-16 13:03 ]

[hpkhilma]

Bugleboy,

I like the system you propose (F#1,F#2 etc..) as it is logical and easy to understand. I am perfectly happy to sacrifice glamour for clarity!

Kevin

[rch-tech]

Bugleboy,
You and I have discussed this quite alot.
I agree with the ska style.
(alot of ska trumpeters, so I've read aren't able to read music, they play via tablature like many guitar players, that's where this notation comes from..at least the first place I've seen it used for trumpets)
Personally, I like it that way best and if you look back thru some of my posts, this it what I had been using.

[_bugleboy]

Rch-tech,

Yes, I remember well that we are in agreement in this regard. And other than hpkhilma, I think that makes it you and I against the infidels! The non-believers!

Logic will always win out! But not necessarily in our lifetimes.

Regards,

CR

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-01-22 19:51 ]

[rch-tech]

my opinion is if you use it enough, maybe it will catch on.
Sure dubba c sounds cooler that c4 and looks better on a license plate...so what! (actually C4 sounds kinda explosive itself...heheh, kidding)

EDIT:
WHOA just realized i am now a veteran member! WooHoo! 100th post and nobody is prolly gonna read it....I seem to be the last poster in half the threads I post in...am I THAT much of a party killer?

[ This Message was edited by: rch-tech on 2002-01-23 11:41 ]

[Emb_Enh]

Would'nt it be ''rough justice'' if we were only allowed to name notes as long as we could play them.......

.......at the end of a performance!

Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]