About Relaxed Corners

jgadvert · Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject:

Being a reformed old smash mouth/smile setting player; I think that I always need to keep some tension on my corners. Always keeping them going towards the mpc. If I don't..particularly when I get tired; the corners tend to go in the smile setting direction...which is bad for endurance, tone etc...

So my point/question is...you DO.. need to do the above(even if you are not thinking about it)..right?

Bruce Lee · Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:04 am Post subject:

jgadvert,

I think that we have to be careful when discussing "relaxed corners", as it tends to lead to much confusion. What we are really talking about is using a different set of muscles than those used with the "traditional"/smile-type embouchure.

The best "loose" description of the muscle group used, most closely resembles the feeling of "stifling" a yawn. In other words, we keep our mouth from going agape by keeping our lips together, while the teeth are most definitely apart. This incorporates both the chin bunch, and "roll-in" feel, and helps us to provide a "padded" embouchure for our mouthpiece.

To increase, or decrease range, the muscles used must remain flexible to be able move "in the right direction", in order for us to accomplish our goals. Additionally, we must provide the proper amount of air support for the notes which we are playing. I hope that this helps to address the issue of the "tension" that you describe.

Best always,
Bruce
_________________
teatro333@gmail.com
Please contact me for BE Lessons

mcamilleri · Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:15 am Post subject:

I have found that blowing air pockets, and also allowing the cheeks to puff out, is really effective at counteracting the stretch/smile habit (I use to play like that too), and it also encourages a rolled-in lips forward/toward the mouthpiece setting.

If you puff you cheeks and lips out fully, and played rolled in, you will soon learn that you don't have to put ANY muscular tension in the lip corners, either in or out, to play a good sounding note in any register. I am not saying you have to play like that all the time, but as an exercise it is very useful. For me, the position of my tongue controls whether or not the cheeks puff out, and it has nothing to do with the corners.

Michael

_________________
_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_
Olds Special Trumpet - 1976
One Horn to Rule Them All!

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-04-03 14:16 ]

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 2:58 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I think it's very frustrating to come to it with the ideal of NO tension in your corners. When I play with the idea of TOTALLY relaxed corners, all the air goes directly out of my mouth around the mouthpiece. Nothing goes through the mouthpiece.
The sound comes best when I look in the mirror, make a hiss, and then look away from the mirror and blow. It comes out naturally, and although I have to reposition my mouth often with the mirror, it's the only way I've been able to make it work for me.

jgadvert · Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject:

I've tried that "puff my cheeks out" thing(ala Dizzy) and my corners tend to go in the smile direction...Don't yours? Interesting that it works for great players. Hey!!

Keeping a little chop muscle tension/strength on the corners(just enough to keep them going in the right direction) also gets tiring(as would the yawn muscles if you had to do it continously for a couple of hours). Thats part of what I figure I build with my various exercises(after doing this for a year or two now..and seeing a significant increase in strength..it almost seems obvious). Once those muscles are "balanced" it hopefully becomes effortless and almost "totally relaxed"

Perhaps it's the word "tension" that I should not have used here.

oj · Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:04 pm Post subject:

jgadvert,

Try this: Roll out your lips (fish mouth). Relax this a bit, but keep the corners from going into a stretch. Allow air pockets in front (upper lip / lower lip). Did this help?

Imo, you don't have to have big air pockets a'la Dizzy, only smaller pockets in the front a'la James Morrison

Ole

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2004-04-05 02:08 ]

jarrelainen · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Posts: 264

I must agree with Ole on this one, but in the end it has propably with ones facial setup to do, what works, for some it is air-pockets in the cheeks while for others it is air-pockets "in the front" or maybe just one "pocket" or maybe everything

??

Just my 2pp

Anyways, it is great to hear other peoples opinions about this.
/JK

eagle362 · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:53 am Post subject:

I too was the typical smash mouth /strech smile player. My only regret that I did'nt have a smart enough teacher 30 years ago to help me.
As for BE< Ive been doing it now 2months. I have a great lip clamp squeek sound but it is a little off to the right and with my old embochure I feel a little better ( and sound) being slightly closer to center. Just in the last few days I feel better at my old position and let the lips puff out and wow, a great sound with far less effort is now coming out.
I have found the basic lip slurrs using a real 'slotted pop" sound on the top notes to be of great help. Even though I'm fairly experienced, I've found that this return to basics and especially the pop using breath control is giving great feedback on how to slur without using my old habit of mpc pressure to accomplish.
All of a sudden my lips dont have hard spots or tension after a practice session. BE is definately the way I can and will improve for the rest of my playing life!!!MARK

[ This Message was edited by: eagle362 on 2004-04-06 11:04 ]

mcamilleri · Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject:

Talking about relaxed corners can get really confusing, and trying to follow specific directions about corners is even harder. That is why Jeff uses the roll-out and roll-in, as they develop the correct use of the corners without all the confusion. The corners should not have un-neccesary tension in them, and especially not the tug-of-war between inward and outward pull that many players use to lock the corners into place in an attempt to avoid puffed cheeks or air-pockets.

Jeff does not prohibit air-pockets, or puffed out cheeks, and I am merely suggesting that people do not go out of their way to avoid them as they practice and develop with BE, or even that they try puffing out the cheeks or using air pockets to see what happens. It is more embouchure territory to explore.
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

bent trumpet · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:46 am Post subject:

I have been trying to do the BE system for about a month. I have been making good progress on the RO, but the RI is becoming frustrating. I have been experimenting with mthpc placement, pressure, and air speed, but all I have been able to get is a faint squeek,or no sound, or a scratchy sounding low pitch.
Today I tried wedging the mthpc in between my lips a bit more (resembles one of the pictures of the young people on the cover of the book). I have considerable air pockets on the upper lip area when I do the clamp. This different placement of the mthpc did allow me to get something that sounded like a G above the staff. I will work with this for a while, but I hope I am not going off in the wrong direction.
I do notice an improved efficiency in my regular playing. I seem to be using a smaller apature and less pressure on the lips.

jgadvert · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:45 am Post subject:

Hey OJ,

your absolutely right. The position of fish mouth setting does position the corners is just about the place one would want to have them. Now one needs a little "corner muscle strength" (yeah..that a better term) to maintain that setting and provide resistence/manipulation to the airflow.

Incidentally, I find this position also allows for proper center buzz concentration. At least what I find.