The next dragon to slay- tonguing.

trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

Hey all.

I have come to a point where my range and endurance are not really limiting me when I play with my BE embouchure. (Yep, my BE embouchure... I know some say it's all indirect, and I agree 100% that it will definetely help you indirectly, but for me I find I get much, much better results using a "direct" embouchure change. i.e. a very rolled-in setup.) But anywho.

I've actually started playing lead at our band and at church completely using a BE setup... hitting notes I never thought I would hit... and lovin it! But I'm running into problems with articulation and tonguing. For instance, one lick I have to play is about 4 measures of triplets at some 130 bpm, all tongued, above the staff. That's where I run into problems. I just barely started being able to actually perform "up there" and sound good enough to impress myself. (donno about impressing anyone else though

(Isn't that awesome?!) But anywho... I would really appreciate any help or advice anyone could give me regarding articulation on a BE embouchure... I'd like to hear from some of you who have done some Callet style tounguing, and how it has went etc. I know this was addressed in the etude/music playing thread but I didn't want to digress to much from the thread subject. Anywho, I would love to hear from those who have been through this, and could offer me some tips/advice. Thanks!

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:42 am Post subject:

Kaleb,

Well, I understand what you mean, but rather than call it a "BE embouchure," I hope that you will consider using the term "rolled in embouchure." Lots of newbies read this forum, and the possibility of confusion is always there.

For the record, there is no such thing as a "BE embouchure."

If you ever start teaching, you will understand why it is important to make this distinction.

I don't think that tonguing is a bigger dragon to slay. It's just the next dragon in line! For most of my students, mastering the tongue is merely a matter of grinding it out over time, doing lots and lots of tonguing exercises.

Exactly where do you tongue? With my students, it's the top lip. So far, I have seen no need whatsoever to go in the direction of the beveled tonguing advocated by Callet, as my students frankly sound terrific, with chops to spare. However, I am not opposed to it, especially if you feel a need to go in that direction. Just be aware that for many players, it is extremely difficult.

Jeff

HJ · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 1:58 am Post subject:

Hi,

Callet-style tonguing (or TCE) is not a necessary next step. I kind of stumbled across it and for me it works to a certain degree. I know that the TCE adepts don't agree with me, but I use TCE as a means to an end. I do about fifteen minutes of spitbuzzing on and off horn and don't care too much what I do when I play. What I DO know is that my tongue always touches my lips, be it top or bottom lip.

There is already a lot said about the differences between TCE and BE ( see also the Callet forum) and I don't want to start a new discussion here. What I DO know is that spitbuzzing and TCE are more difficult techniques and should be handeled with care. If you can tongue on lips you are right on track and it will improve over time. In fact, although I practice TCE, I think my main attack is just tongue on lips which is strengthened by TCE exercises.

Bert

G3 · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:52 am Post subject:

Kaleb,
The tongueing problem will disappear if you are faithfully doing the tongue - on - lips exercises regularly. I do them a couple of extra times per practice - they have been cited as a key element of success, by Bruce lee and some others as well, so be diligent. Also use the tongue on the top lip as much as possible when doing the roll - in exercises. To be able to do these from f on the top line and up you must reduce mpc pressure allowing the tongue and lips to work in unison. I am in my 3rd week as well and am experiencing increased intonation, clarity and facility above the staff. Awesome stuff BE.

mcamilleri · Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:47 pm Post subject:

Finally, a thread that is dear to my heart. Check out some of my posts about tongue-on-lips to find out where my biases lie.

I use tongue-on-lips or Callet style tonguing exclusively - I could never in 25+ years of trumpet playing get the 'Ta-Ta' behind the teeth style to work. My tongue basically goes where it wants to - sometimes squarely on the top lip, sometimes on the bottom, sometimes hitting both like a spitting action, and sometimes the Callet style beveled tonguing articulating off the top teeth. It is possible to do ALL types of articulations with ANY of these styles, from hard, sfz attacks to legato tonguing. It all comes down to practice and control.

To start with, you need to master the tongue-on-lips exercises. Then do scales, studies, and etudes using tongue-on-lips. As you do these exercises, you have the chance to vary the lip/tongue position to find what works best for you. As you do more tongue-on-lips your lip position will change - chances are you jaw will open more, and the top lip will come down, and you will gain more inward focus - all good things. Make sure you practice at all dynamics, and all articulations, from very hard to very smooth.

Make sure you do the double/triple tonguing exercises also. They do things to your embouchure that I really cannot explain in words. They are not simply an afterthought in BE, or a tribute to Arban, they are really important. You can also double/triple tongue using the Callet style tonguing - I know it sounds impossible, but you can.

If you want to try the Callet style, then I suggest that you try the following. Jam you tongue through the teeth as far forward and down over the front lower teeth as you can, all the way down to the gum line. Now play and tongue while leaving the tongue in this position. Sounds impossible, but it is not. Articulation will probably not be great in this position, but it will get you started with articulating from a point back from the tip, and with the tip of the tongue resting in a fixed position. Later on (a few days or a week or so), you can move the tip back to maybe on the inside of the bottom lip, or resting permanently on the bottom teeth. The reason for the radical position is that it forces you to do something completely different than normal - the 'spit a hair off the tongue' instruction alone that Callet uses may or may not get you doing the right thing.

My attitude to tonguing has radically changed with BE. Tongue-arch is the primary enemy. If it is relied on too much, expecially in the higher register, then the tongue is forced to do more things at once than it can handle - eg, articulate, regulate air-pressure at the lips, control pitch, and control cheek and lip puff. No wonder it all falls apart in the high register. With the element of roll-in in BE, the air pressure is controlled by the lips, and the tongue only needs to articulate.

I have said in previous posts that it is the tongue that controls whether or not cheeks puff out. I don't want to debate that here, but just suggest that as you are experimenting with tongue-on-lips and variations, that if you do find your cheeks puffing out, or find air-pockets in the lips, just accept them and don't try to eliminate them at that stage. Take it as an indicator that you are doing something different, and make as much progress as you can with the air pockets and puffed cheeks. With practice, you can control the cheek puff while doing the tongue on lips thing with minimal tongue arch.

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

Bruce Lee · Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:40 am Post subject:

In the BE book, Jeff addresses this in the "Tongue-On-Lips" section, and in the "Mechanics" chapter. For those who have yet to get the BE book, you'll find a bit of information here: http://www.trumpetteacher.net/mechanics.html

Michael's "suggestion" has merit. I have bolded what I feel is a key point.:

trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

First I'd like to say thank you! All the posts have been very informative. I've been celebrating the victory of "slaying the dragon" so to speak of range... (have NOT mastered it, just made substantial improvements!) ... but I've been avoiding the tonguing issue, and it is really the only thing keeping me back from using a "rolled-in setup" 100% of the time. It is really good to hear there is hope... it has been a fear of mine for awhile...

Anywho.

mcamilleri · Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject:

Quote: "My biggest problem is that my jaw tends to bounce with each strike of the tongue when I am rolled in. And my secondary problem is that there is not really enough room between my teeth to hit my lips squarely." Unquote

Practicing tongue-on-lips will force you to open the jaw more. Also, you will gain independence between tonguing, jaw movement, jaw opening, and chin push-up (hope that makes sense), whilst using less tongue arch (don't try to analyse it, just do the exercises!). Once you gain this independence, the jaw will stop bobbing, and the tonguing will stabalise. Many people cannot open their jaw without also pulling the chin muscles down - it used to happen to me and was VERY frustrating.

Jeff mentioned in a post a while back that ALL his advanced students articulate using tongue-on-lips.

Quote: "And also double and triple tonguing while rolled in. I never knew that would help!"

Jeff only put things in his book that would help. EVERYTHING in the book is essential - ignore it at your peril!

Just one point to clarify my suggestion for pushing the tongue all the way to the gum-line. That is for introducing Callet style tonguing. BE tongue-on-lips is different, even though the description of some type of spitting action has been applied to both. If you don't want to try Callet style tonguing, don't try the gum-line experiment. You MUST do tongue-on-lips.

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

Bruce Lee · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:05 am Post subject:

Hi, Michael!

I hope that you didn't take my post the wrong way. What I had meant by quoting from your post was that it is NECESSARY to experiment, when making changes. I applaud that thinking!

By exploring the extremes, it's often easier to find the middle ground. What tends to work the best is quite often found a bit beyond where we place our own limits. Experimentation can be our most valuable tool for achieving success!

Best always,
Bruce
_________________
teatro333@gmail.com
Please contact me for BE Lessons

mcamilleri · Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject:

No problem, Bruce. I only replied to reinforce the distinction between Callet style tonguing and tongue-on-lips, as there is room for confusion when both are described as some type of spitting action. Also, for BE development, replacing tongue-on-lips entirely with Callet style tonguing may be counterproductive, as the Callet style does not force the top lip to come down. All BE students should practice tongue-on-lips as described by Jeff.

Michael

HJ · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:39 am Post subject:

Michael,

Tongue on lips is essential to BE. Striking the top lip is the aiming point. This should be done with the tongue tip.
From your posts I understand that you, too, have done your bit of experimenting with TCE (the gum-line experiment is in fact great to get the feeling, it was first described by Kyle in a post called 'three steps to SC' or something similar. Very interesting read).
I got confused with TCE (who does not at times?) when I read that you should strike your top lip. I asked Kyle if this was right, or that he might have mistaken top lip for bottom lip, and the answer was that in the end you should strike the top lip and have your tongue tip anchored at the bottom lip. So, in the end you have to bring down the top lip, too, in TCE, otherwise I don't really see how you can actually touch your top lip. So, if you practice Callet-style tonguing (which I do, instead of tongue-on-lips,what I do when I don't think) I think the outcome will be more or less the same e.g. the top lip comes in and down slightly and is monitored by the tongue. For me the only way to have a clean attack while playing rolled in is TCE-style. If I attack with my tonguetip against toplip I loose the roll-in and I loose control over tone and just air comes out.

BUT: for everyone who reads this, you can have your little experiment with this, but tongue on lips for normal playing is good enough and much safer. I advice anyone who wants to learn about TCE to visit one of Jerry's clinics, or at least ask Kyle a lot.
For me it just happens to work, and I understood what Jerome Callet told me. Maybe it is a bag of tricks thing, maybe it is a logical next step, but it is not really the safest way.

Bert

mcamilleri · Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject:

Bert,

Thanks for your thoughful reply. My description of Callet-style tonguing was more at the SuperChops end, rather than TCE style, I think, and yes I did read that post by Kyle, which really helped me to figure out the basic tonguing style. We should both get a life, I think

The main reason for me looking into TCE was that my embouchure seems to be heading that way through BE anyway at the moment. Before BE I could not make head nor tail of SuperChops, and would probably have been equally lost in TCE.

I bought the TCE book a few weeks ago, as I have a great respect for Callets ideas, and wanted to know more. I have not learned how to do the full TCE thing, just read and dabbled a bit, but it seems to have a different tongue placement in different registers, and maybe it will bring the top lip down when fully developed. I know that TCE moved away from the Superchops idea of the bottom lip pushing up over the top teeth.

The main difference between BE tongue-on-lips and TCE tonguing is that in BE the striking point is the tip of the tongue, and in TCE it is a point about 1" back from the tip (as Callet describes it), and the tip of the tongue remains fixed on or about the bottom lip.

Michael

gerrit2 · Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:30 am Post subject:

My experience about tonguing with BE:
I'm in with BE for several months now. My teacher is a very good trumpetplayer (solo trumpeter of a very good orchestre in the Netherlands). We talk a lot about music and stuff, but not about technic. He's doesn't really know what he's doing. (his words, not mine). He teaches the flat chin.
Today he said to me: I don't know what you are doing, but things are going pretty well. First your endurance and range and now your tonguing. So lovely, nice and soft! (his words again). He also stopped complaining about my sound. So tonguing with BE is possible, also for CLASSICAL trumpeters!!!

Okay, I know, there is more work to do, but wanted to tell you this.
All the best

Larrios · Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:58 pm Post subject:

Hi Gerrit,

Good to hear from you again. I'm very happy for you that you're finding your way with articulation, which I know has been a bit of a trouble zone in the beginning. I'm also very happy to hear that your teacher is giving you the room to experiment like this. Send him my regards.

Ko

HJ · Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:14 am Post subject:

Gerrit,

I think it was you who asked about BE on a Dutch trumpet forum about tonguing and BE in general. You mailed me and I think Ko, too and we (and of course you, yourself) talked you into this. I am very happy that you post this positive message now. Great that it works for you (although everybody who does BE can tell you that). I am also happy that your teacher hears the difference, but it concerns me that he admits he does not know what he is doing. That is bad, isn't it? I mean he teaches at the conservatory. Maybe when you blow the roof off you eventually should tell him how you did that. It would make a big change if someone like him finally adopts the BE-principles. It would make conservatory a lot safer.

I am going to do my bit of BE-promotion with clinics, but if the supposed 'big guys' spread the message, Holland will be trumpeters heaven soon.

And Michael; you said:
> We should both get a life, I think >

Whahahahahahahahahahahaha LOL

But what strikes me is that you too feel it going in the direction of more or less TCE. For me, too it's more of an experiment that works for now, but it felt like a logical step.

Bert

mcamilleri · Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:48 pm Post subject:

Regarding heading towards TCE, I suppose I feel comfortable about that since I have always used a Callet style tonguing, or tongue-on-lips (before I read Arbans treastise on tonguing at about age 12 and got seriously distracted

). Also, I have tried all sorts of other methods that advocate tonguing behind the teeth and tongue arch, and they have been a complete failure for me. No doubt they work for some people, but not for me.

Callet is the only system (that I am aware of) that discourages tongue arch (BE encourages moderation, but I suspect that Jeff privately holds a similar view to Callet - he just didn't want to seriously wind up the band directors - yet), and BE and TCE/Superchops are the only ones that advocate tonguing through the teeth. Also, BE and
TCE/Superchops are the only ones that advocate small mouthpiece cup diameters, and two of only a few that use pedal tones. There are many commonalities between the two systems. I don't know enough about either to say if they are ultimately the same (they are likely not), but even if the destination is the same, the road to get there is very different.

I haven't yet seriously tried TCE - just read the book. Maybe I will try it, maybe not. One thing is for certain: BE has given me the embouchure control and the understanding that I need to tackle TCE if I choose to. If I tried TCE without my BE background I would crash and burn just as I did with Superchops a couple of years back.

Michael