Flugelhorn repair or replace?

[Tom LeCompte]

I've been in denial for a while, but I'm working my way through the stages of grief and I'm almost up to acceptance. My flugelhorn has not aged well, and it need a lot of work.

It's an Elkhart brand flugelhorn, which I bought "lightly used" in 1979 or so. It's first owner bought it, decided he didn't like it, returned it, and I got it as a steal. It's a good - but not exceptional - player. It's had a hard life: for example, I used it for four years in an Italian marching band. The finish is going (I have acid hands), the first and third slide bottoms look none too good (this is a vertical slide model), and the valves have little compression left. While they haven't actually started leaking yet, I can tell that they are thinking really hard about it. Particularly the first valve.

While I could send it to Steve Winans to fix, an overhaul and replate is $450. Figure two extra hours of work and it's $550. It clearly needs a valve job, so no we're up to $900. If this were the greatest flugel that has ever been built, I'd spend the money, but it's not.

I like the sound of the instrument. It's got a very delicate flugel sound, a delicacy that was emphasized because the horn was relatively easy to overblow. It was not as dark and trombone-y as many other flugels, particularly above about C or D in the staff, where it started to sing. It's hard to characterize sound in words, but I would say it's mellow without being heavy, which is the sound I'm trying to shoot for. So there's a good match between where the horn naturally sounds and the sound I want to make.

Two questions:

(1) Have I erred in my analysis that suggests "replace" rather than "repair"? I assume the time to do this will be when the valves decide to stop thinking about leaking and out and out do it.

(2) Any recommendations as to the replacement? Obviously, I'm going to weigh advice that starts "I've been playing an X for months/years" more than "I tried a X once", but all opinions are welcome. I have a pretty definite preference for small bore flugels over large bore flugels. I don't mind spending money, but hate wasting it.

[TimBrown]

Hello!

Before I owned my Kanstul ccf925, I owned a Yammie 2310 that I got for $400 on Ebay...in VERY newish condition. The description of your horn sounds alot like that one. Not as dark. My only gripe with it was the valves sticking. The sound was brighter and it was easy to overblow.

Tim
_________________
Getzen 900 DLX
Kanstul Meha .470
L.A. Benge 3x+ 9879
1912 Holton New Proportion cornet
Kanstul CCF 925 flugel
King 1122 MFH

10 out of 10 people die. Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

[Balt58]

Your Elkhart flugel was made by Cousenon and is admittedly not their best, even at that time. I had a vintage (60's) Queenie and spent in excess of $800 having done exactly what your thinking of doing to yours and it still didn't solve my problems (slow, gritty valves, bad intonation - all the well-known problems with these horns) I just gave up, beautiful as it was, and found out how to get a current Cousenon from the factory. That solved my problem. I would suggest fixing a price point on your repair and anything over that is a replacement. That worked for me.

[_swthiel]

Tom,

Your analysis makes sense to me. The maintenance costs you've identified are more the the (probably too high) price I paid for my Elkhart flugel on ebay last year. I really like the sound I can get with the horn -- dark and smooth, but not too heavy. I've actually used it to cover a viola part in a piece that was scored for choir, organ, and viola! My biggest complaint about the horn is that it doesn't have a third valve trigger.

So, sounds like it's time to start shopping ... I'm interested in hearing what you think as you try out other horns.

Keep us posted!

Steve
_________________
Steve Thiel

Matthew 25:31-46

[_dcstep]

Purely on economics, it's not worth repairing. It will not be worth the repair cost after completion. SO I'd only repair it if it had huge sentimental value (like your father played it for 40years, etc.), which doesn't seem to be the case.

I know of an excellent mint V1, satin silver finish flugel. That's an excellent example of a small bore flugel.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[Tom LeCompte]

Balt58, I'm thinking the price point should be one dollar. Even a Jupiter flugel would cost hundreds less than what reparing this would be, and it wouldn't be that much worse a horn. Probably better in some respects, worse in others.

Steve, I think you've hit the biggest advantage of the horn - its sound. Even in like new condition, though, it was not so easy to play. One of the things I've been thinking is "If I do have it fixed, it seems silly not to add a trigger". But that increases the price still more, and further tips the scales towards scrapping this one <sniff> and getting another.

Dave, there is some sentimental value here: I've been with this horn longer than many people have been with their spouses. But is there $1000 of sentimental value? Well, no. I am in the midst of having Steve Winans working on my trumpet, but that's because a) the cost is less, and b) that horn is an exceptional player. Part of the reason I am posting this is to see if someone sees something I've missed.

Can you tell me about this Vintage 1? I've never seen one in person, much less played one.

Cheers,

Tom

[plp]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind about replacing it. To further complicate your world, play test a Wild Thing flugel. Then you have to do the whole rationalization thing all over again, along the lines of, "OK, sure I could get this one overhauled for half the price, but darn it, I deserve to play a pro horn, and 3 grand REALLy isn't THAT much.....and the sound!!!"

My son picked up a flyer at the Mobile Trumpetfest and must have run 50 copies, has become a running gag in our house...I open my toolbox at work, and there is a flyer. I get my Arban out and every other page for 10 pages has a flyer. I drew the line when I went to get a roll of toilet paper and.......well, you know......some things are just sacred....

[pedaltonekid]

If there is no sentimental value - get a new one. For budget minded purchasers you could look at a Getzen Eterna or Kanstul Custom Class.
_________________
Best Regards, Play Well!!

[Tom LeCompte]

PLP-

I have mostly made up my mind. But part of my rationale for asking around is to
see if there's something I missed.

I would be much more inclined to pay $3000 for a trumpet than a flugelhorn,
though. After all, I play trumpet far more than I play flugelhorn. It's also
hard enough to find a WT trumpet - where might one find a WT flugel? I'd want
to try the horn in question, not just one by the same manufacturer. I'm old
enough to remember the Schilke flugelhorn.

Have you played a WT flugel?

Pedaltonekid -

Why the Custom Class over the Chicago? It's sort of hard to understand the
difference between the horns from a spec sheet, without having the horns in
front of me As far as the Getzen Eterna, it's a large bore flugel.

How much have you played those two horns?

Cheers,

Tom

[JOEG]

Tom,

If your looking Mid-Budget Flugelhorn that plays and performs very well, I would consider the following:

Getzen Eterna Flugel Horns (895 and 896) (3v and 4v)(Much larger bore than most Flugelhorns)

Kanstul Custom Class (Offhand I belive it is a .415 Bore)(3rd Slide trigger)

Yamaha Student Line (Very Good Flugelhorns)

Any Used Pro Yamaha Flugel (Usually $895-1095) (631,631G,731,6310Z)(6310Z)

Sincerely,

Joe Gaspar
Dillon Music
Joe@DillonMusic.com
http://www.DillonMusic.com
732-634-3399

[_dcstep]

I'm thinking most people are missing the point that this flugel you have has a classic, light flugel sound. Most of the recommendations (Eterna, Kanstul) are from the darker end of the spectrum. I don't know the Wild Thing, but I suspect it's also from the darker end of the scale.

Lighter horns would be the Yamaha Shew, Conn Vintage One, most french brands (Selmer, Couesnon, etc.). Getzen's talking here about a new small bore, but it's not on the market yet. The Jupiters are copies of the Yamaha 731 from what I've read, so I'd class them at the darker end of the continuum.

Tom, I hate to recommend the V1 outright, but I think it's from the school of tone that you like. The intonation is excellent and they are well built. I have a friend that has a satin silver finished one in mint condition for $1200. If there's a way you could try one I'd highly recommend them.

Despite my 731, I actually prefer the lighter end of the tonal spectrum. I'll probably buy a Selmer Paris or Vintage One before the year end, but I've got more shopping to do.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[Tom LeCompte]

Dave-

Yes, that's exactly right. I am looking for something with a similar sound: warm without being heavy. Maybe "classic flugel sound" is the right description, maybe not. It's certainly true that the recent trend for "how dark can you go?" is not the sound I want.

Zig Kanstul makes three different pro flugels. I can't believe he would make all three of them similar sounding. That's one reason I'm so curious as to the difference between them, particularly the similarly priced Custom and Chicago series. (The Signature is presumably the darkest of the three)

To be honest, I hear the name "Conn", and I get a little queasy. I have heard very good things about the V1 trumpets, and I know Conn is striving to regain the brand respectability that they, frankly, trashed years back. But it's a little like finding out that Yugo is getting into the luxury car business.

Is your friend looking to sell his horn Right This Minute?

Cheers,

Tom

[plp]

As to play testing, email Tom Turner, as he is a rep for WT's, or Flip Oakes, as he builds them. Yes, I have played one, but don't own one. I have a Yammie student line which satisfys all my flugel requirements when I can pry it away from my son, but to compare it to the WT is the same as comparing a Volkswagon to a Porsche, even though it is a very good Volkswagon.

I agree about the Conns, although I love the vintage ones above all others.

[_dcstep]

Tom, I think you can rest assured that the Conn name has regained its old respect with the Vintage One series. I'm played half a dozen of their trumpets and three or four of their flugels and all have been consistant and great players. Conn used to be a great name and if they keep this up for a while, they will be again.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[plankowner110]

Tom LeCompte,

You can buy a new Conn "Vintage One" trumpet or flugel with complete confidence in the quality of the instrument. As you may know, Conn, Selmer (Bach), and King are all combined now in the same corporation, Conn-Selmer, Inc. When you examine the 2004 price catalog, you will immediately notice that the "Vintage One" series trumpets (B-flat and C) and V1 flugel are the highest priced models in the catalog. I have met Fred Powell, designer of the V1s, on a couple of occasions and I was quite convinced that Conn-Selmer has designed and produced these new models to be their premium instruments.

The Vintage Ones are made by a couple of select craftsmen at the modern, expanded Eastlake, Ohio facility. The old Conn company had some quality control problems on brass instruments made in Texas and Arizona, but that was 25 years ago. Times change. Every instrument bearing the name C.G. Conn today is absolute top quality.

[Tom LeCompte]

So I was able to get a few minutes time on a Vintage One.

Sound: the sound is a notch brighter than my present horn, but it has a lot more presence. The "lot more presence" part is a strong positive, although its not so clear that I like the combination with "a notch brighter".

Intonation was like no other flugelhorn I've ever played. There's the old joke, Q. "How do you tune a flugelhorn?" A. "Why even bother to try?" This horn was nothing like that. Intonation was right there the whole time. A B scale sounded just as good as a C scale. The D above the staff - the one Chuck Mangione always gets flat - was right there.

Playability: The horn has a very strong open Bb. If you don't focus enough on the G or C, the horn spanks you for it. Discovered that the hard way. Overall, I had to pay quite a bit more attention to "driving" the horn than my own, but that may not be so surprising. Flugels vary more than trumpets.

Overblowing the horn was not difficult, but it does accept a lot of air before that happens.

Construction: this looked to be a very well put together horn. Top sprung valves, valve guides on both sides, feels very solid. The third valve trigger was very smooth. The valve caps were not so easy to rethread and screw back on. That was the only part of the horn that felt cheaply made.

Pet peeves: I don't like the pinky ring. It was uncomfortable resting my pinky on top of the ring, which is where I usually have it when playing trumpet. The wood trigger looked out of place, and I wondered about how long it would last before needing to be replaced. The satin silver finish didn't impress me; I didn't think it looked any better than bright silver. The bell engraving on the side of the bell seemed a little too much like having a billboard on my horn when I play. And the case was decidedly unimpressive - yes, I know you don't play the case, but it is the first impression one gets.

Overall - is it better than my horn now? Unquestionably. Is it better than my horn at its prime? Also unquestionably. It's a very, very good horn. Is it for me? Maybe - I think I'd need to play it longer than a few minutes to tell.

Summary: I can't believe it's a Conn!

[FreshBrewed]

If you have the time, you may want to get to ITG this year. It's in a few months and I'm sure there will be Kanstul flugels there. Eclipse will also be there. Having owned a Kanstul flugel, I can tell you that they are a really great horn at a decent price. I don't know the cost of the Eclipse flugel because it hasn't been put out yet. ITG will be its debut. Sometimes I wish I would not have sold the Kanstul but I don't play flugel but maybe 3 times a year so it wasn't worth keeping it........words of the wife.
_________________
Mike

Those who roll up their sleeves rarely lose their shirts!

Eclipse MHY Bell- Savannah Finish

[lonelyangel]

I would strongly advise anyone who is in the market for a new flugel to try to get to the ITG for the launch of the Eclipse flugel. I have been involved in the development of this horn over the last year and it is really very very special - the sound of the classic Cuesnon, a sweet small core to the notes with a fluffy, smokey halo, yet with the intonation and build quality of the Eclipse trumpets. it also features 'probably the best valves in the business' by Bauerfiend - which have an even shorter throw than the trumpet valves. It will be available with a yellow brass or red brass bell - giving a lighter or darker sound - and in the wide variety of finishes offered on the Eclipse trumpets.

As with all the Eclipse instruments the consistancy between horns is extremely good - because they are all made and finished by just two men, John and Leigh at FCB - so I would have no worries about ordering a horn even if you hadn't tried that particular instrument.

Keep a close watch on the eclipse website http://www.eclipsetrumpets.com for details of price and availability.

All the best, Noel.

[Tom LeCompte]

Hi Noel-

Thanks for the recommendation. Eclipses run about 2000 pounds, right? I don't know the exchange rate at the moment, but that's got to be something like $3300. That's a lot money. IS it worth the money? For someone who makes their living by playing, probably. For me, though, I had to face the conclusion that as a musician, I would always be just scraping by, but I could become a very, very good nuclear physicist.

With my trumpet, I think 99% of the problems are on my end of the mouthpiece and only 1% on the horn's end. If I had a horn ten times better, I'd only have less than 1% fewer problems. Because of the greater variation between flugels, the horn effects are probably larger, but even so, I can't justify spending the money for going from an excellent horn to an outstanding one. Even spending the money for going from "very good" to "excellent" is something I would think about. If I were going to spend that kind of money on a horn, it would probably be a trumpet, just because I play it more.

I really appreciate your comments, though, in many ways because your perspective is different from mine. That's why I participate: to get viewpoints other than my own so that I do not develop tunnel vision.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tom LeCompte]

Since I mentioned "presence" in the Vintage One comments, let me try and articulate a concern of mine.

In a lot of the Nestico Basie charts, the 4th book trumpet is often used as a "woodwind", usually with a harmon mute. Using a flugelhorn here can be very effective, but it's really easy to stomp over the lead alto player (who is one's 'acting section leader' at the time). So while lots of flugelhorns will work fine as a solo instrument, I'm fussy about the sound because I want to have the opportunity to use this as a section instrument as well.

So while a lot of presence in the horn is a good thing, it's also true that there can't be so much that blending becomes difficult. I find what we've been calling the "French" sound a lot easier to blend with than certain other sounds. Is that clearer? (Probably not)