Sticky/Slow Valves?

[Bakerc]

This has been discussed several times here in the forums, but I am having problems with my 2nd and 3rd valves in my Strad. These valves work perfectly when I am not playing, but when I play long tones (and only long tones) they sometimes go back up VERY slowly.

After cleaning the valves and the casing out several times with a cloth or a valve casing brush, I tried several different oils, including Space Filler 1, Al Cass, Alisyn, and Blue Juice but none of them work. I have some Hetman #3 for a vintage instrument, but my problem horn seems to have fairly tight valves still (It is about 5 years old).

I have also worked toothpaste in them. This did seem to make them a bit faster, but didn't help keep them from sticking. Finally, I took the instrument to the local repair shop where they lapped the valve. It's very shiny now, but it still sticks intermittently.

Does anybody have any other suggestions to try? I'm trying to avoid sending it away to have the valves worked on.

Thanks!
Chris

*Edit* I forgot to mention that I have had other players play it, and the same thing happened to them.

[ This Message was edited by: Bakerc on 2004-04-17 23:23 ]

[jhatpro]

You might try Binak oil, which works for many players where other oils have not.

It that doesn't fix the problem, I'd recommend sending your horn to Steve "Dr. Valve" Wynans. He took care of a similar problem on my Bach.

He's at http://www.doctorvalve.com/
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[trumpetmike]

Sounds like it's time for a valve check-up with a decent repairman.
I have had this on a couple of instruments, after a bit of polishing they are soon back up and running smoothly again.

[Pete]

Trytaking out, and stretching the valve springs about 1/4 inch. Be careful not to pull too hard. You can always get new springs for it. I like a stiffer feel on valves anyway. I've done this on any horn that I've owned. It's better than ruining the valves. Although the toothpaste thing has been around for a while, it might not be the best thing to use. The spring stretching may do the trick! Let us know.

Pete

[Tom LeCompte]

Since it happens on long notes only, let me do some theorizing:

When you push down on the valves, is there any horizontal force you are applying to the valves? The one thing that is different between normal playing and long tones is that the valves are down longer. If you have a slight horizontal push, that will give a slight counterclockwise torque to the valves, and that can do two things: it can squeeze some of the oil out of the gap between the valve and the valve casing, and it can make it easier for the valve to get caught up on some piece of microscopic crud (which can in turn be caused by chemical contamination). Neither is normal for the horn.

If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do. First, the horn is probably due for a chem clean and polish. Have that done. At that time, ask the person who does it to have a quick peek at your valve guides and see if anything looks wrong with them: a small delrin burr, warping, scoring, not being set 100% right, etc. Now, once all the crud that collects in horns is gone, from that moment on, nothing goes in the valve casing except valve oil.

Either that will solve the problem, or it won't. If it does, great. If it doesn't, we know the problem is with the valves themselves, not with some funky interaction with the stuff floating around in the horn. (You haven't really lost anything - most horns could use a good cleaning anyway) In that case, I'd bite the bullet and send it to Steve Winans. Call him first - you might be able to negotiate a window with minimum downtime. Or you can do what I did: I've rented a student horn to play on while my Strad is in the shop.

Cheers,

Tom

[Bakerc]

Thanks for all the replies!

It could be that I'm not pushing it down straight, but I'm not sure. However, once it does start sticking it doesn't matter what angle I push it; it will keep sticking even when pushed perfectly straight. At times I'll experiment with pushing it at different angles but nothing I do when not playing seems to make it stick.

The springs I'm using are beginning to get old, though. I will try to replace them and see if that helps. While I'm at it I'll probably try changing valve guides too. If nothing seems to help I'll go to the local repair shop and see what they say before sending it away.

Thanks again,
Chris

[GrumpyPe0n]

Hmm..try using zaja oil. its the best stuff ive ever used.. it might sound amatuer but make sure you arent over oiling your valves, as well as underoiling them..

[_Japle]

Your problem might not be in the valves, it might be the spring boxes and valve guides.

Make sure the slots the guides move in and the guides themselves are perfectly smooth. Run your fingernail up and down inside the slots; you shouldn't feel any roughness at all. They should be glass-smooth. I polish mine with a super-fine Arkansas stone.
Make sure there's no excess play between the guides and the slots.
Oil the guides too, not just the valves.
_________________
John
Cape Canaveral

[Kanne]

I have sticky 2nd valve on Bach strad - instrument is 5 years old.
Not yet fixed.

[mheffernen5]

Try Zaja oil...maybe better grade of valve oil. Also, Holton oil is suppose to be something to write home about but I don't know.

[Halflip]

You might also try cleaning the pistons and the inside of the valve casings with some lukewarm water and grease-cutting dishwashing liquid (when I owned a Monette, Dave M. recommended Ajax dishwashing liquid). Use a soft cotton cloth, and be sure to flush the pistons and casings with lots of water before oiling and reassembling them.

If grease build-up is causing your problem, you will notice a signifiv=cant improvement after cleaning.