Horn try-outs & differences in metal

trumpetertom · Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:24 pm Post subject:

I played a few more horns today in my quest to replace an old worn out Bach. They were: Bach 72 & 43 (they were out of 37's), Yamaha Xeno, Conn V1B & 1BR, and an older Getzen Renaissance. The Bach trumpets felt "correct" to me because that is what I am so familiar with. They played OK exhibiting the qualities that are mentioned in the literature; the 72 being darker and the 43 brighter with better response. The Yamaha just doesn't do it for me. I'm sure they are a very good horn as so many have mentioned, but I have never played one that feels open to me. The Getzen was pretty good, but I understand that this is not offered any more and that advances have been made with their current custom line. That brings me to the Conn offerings. The 1BR felt very good. It blew easily and it seemed to project well. Then I tried the 1B. This thing really excited me. Response was outstanding and it had a very pure tone. They just don't feel good to me while holding them, but I'm sure one could get used to the difference. Now for my metal question. In a recent post, the difference between yellow brass, gold & rose was explained. Based on my playing today, it appears that the rose brass plays darker than the yellow, so is it safe to say that the higher content of copper in all horns will reduce brightness?

musicalmason · Veteran Member Joined: 24 Feb 2004 Posts: 214

yep, Im fairly confident in saying, that if you were to compare to identical horns, with identical bells (same thickness) the only difference of one bell having a higher copper content than the other, with the same player and same mp, the copper bell would have a darker sound. in general, copper means darker.

_dcstep · Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject:

I much prefer the yellow brass to the rose brass V1. The rose is darker and less trumpet-like to me. The yellow responds a little more easily to me. It comes down to a matter of personal taste, but there is a clear difference.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

_Daff · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431

I have the rose brass V1, (for sale by the way). It's very easy to color. I'm going to get another one with a freer blow, maybe the reversed pipe or the #50 leadpipe. I can make it sound syrupy dark with my GR65.6C mp, or light it up with my M cup. The bell seems to stabilize my high register sound. Since my other horn is naturally on the bright side, I am thinking of getting the rose brass again.

Try this and elimniate all the phsychological BS and all the stuff in your head........test them without peeking and just scream away on each one while a friend or the music store salesperson shuffles them for you. They will all feel the same in your hand, so you will be able to judge the blow by feel and sound rather than those other pesky influences. I do the same thing with my few mouthpieces once in a while for fun. It's amazing how much baggage we carry betweeen our ears, when its really the blow and eardrums that are important.

[ This Message was edited by: Daff on 2004-04-30 21:35 ]

trumpetertom · Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject:

One thing is certain, I'm having a lot of fun trying out the various horns. I'm also new to the forum and am really enjoying the replies. I mentioned in my first post that I am very interested in the Getzen Genesis, but have not found a single dealer in the Chicago market that carries it. I have been invited to visit the factory in Elkhorn, but was hoping to A/B the Genesis with other quality horns. Any feed back on the Genesis?

_dcstep · Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject:

Daff is right; however, sometimes it's hard to hear the difference in a horn unless you play it into a reflective corner of a room or off a mirror. Just playing it out into a room, the player doesn't really hear it. Ideally you can have a strong player play for you and listen from a distance of 20-feet or more. This is very revealing.

For instance, I compared a Yamaha 8335RGSM and a RGM and they felt and sounded exactly alike from behind the horn playing in my living room. When I played them into into a mirror, the silver horn was considerably brighter than the lacquer horn.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

mheffernen5 · Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 11:08 am Post subject:

go for either the Conn or the Getzen custom...just my opinion...search for forums on those at any trumpet website

Tom LeCompte · Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject:

Tom-

In my opinion (as a fair-to-middlin' player and a not-to-terrible physicist), there is a difference in sound between different metals, but not so much as horn manufacturers will have you believe. The largest factors seem to be a) bell shape/size, b) bell weight, c) bell finish (lacquer or not) and material is fourth.

The simplest model of the physics of the horn is the following: the air pushes on the bell, setting up vibrations in the bell, and as bell vibrates, the bell pushes on the air. It turns out in this model, both the mass and material of the bell exactly cancels out - there's no effect. Only the bell shape matters, and this is why bell shape has such a big effect on the sound.

The next simplest model is quite a bit more complicated. The air pushes on the bell, setting up vibrations in the bell at the same frequency as the frequency of the air vibrations. The bell can actually vibrate at several different frequencies - called "normal modes" - and these modes are coupled. So by driving the bell at one frequency, you can excite modes at other frequencies - usually higher ones - and the bell's vibration at these higher frequencies will change the timbre of the sound. So there is a materials effect, but it is softer.

Let me disagree with Daff - the psychological stuff in your head is important. A lot of what passes for the physics of trumpets is utter nonsense, but if you think you can achieve the sound you want with "Blue Brass" and not with "Purple Brass", so you buy a "Blue Brass" horn, I would consider this a success. You got the sound you want. If the reason you got the sound you want isn't the one you think it is, so what? Psychology is part of the game - it's a lot easier to run with it than to fight it. And if a physical scientist is telling you this....

Cheers,

Tom

_Daff · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431

" Let me disagree with Daff - the psychological stuff in your head is important. A lot of what passes for the physics of trumpets is utter nonsense, but if you think you can achieve the sound you want with "Blue Brass" and not with "Purple Brass", so you buy a "Blue Brass" horn, I would consider this a success. You got the sound you want. If the reason you got the sound you want isn't the one you think it is, so what? Psychology is part of the game - it's a lot easier to run with it than to fight it. And if a physical scientist is telling you this....

Cheers,

Tom"

Yep, but it's more difficult for metal to change its mind or be persuaded otherwise by some other authority. Generally, physics will hold fast where psych will mess your mind.