Getzen in need of repair.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

I have a Getzen (deg) flugal horn that has some red rot growing in the valve section.

Although the finish is still mint,I let this horn sit up in the basement like a dumb bunny for 20 years and broke it out the other day to discover this horror.

I tried some really fine lapping compound in the valves working the valve up and down hundreds of times and turned it in its axis about 10 degrees left and right but it didn't seem to fix it all.

Generally how much does it cost to have valves lapped professionally?I really hate to spend a lot of money on this horn because it was not that great of a horn to start with.

[ This Message was edited by: camel lips on 2004-05-01 14:00 ]

mheffernen5 · Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject:

I have an idea..since rotton musical stuff is not good...buy a new one. Yamaha is suppose to be good. There is a post on http://www.trumpetplayeronline.com about one.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

Your right on the money.

I am just wanting to get this thing ready to sell.

I have been looking strongly at the Conn vintage one Flugal.Haven't gotten a chance to play one yet.

I just won a Conn Vintage one trumpet over on Ebay that I will be reporting on soon.

I am really impressed with the what Conn is doing with their line of Vintage one instruments.More and more of the people that I see making their meat and potato's with horns are using them.

Yamaha may indeed make a excellent Flugal.I will certainly give one a try before I decide.As it goes now I need to save my money up for one.I am hoping that the valve repair can be done of the cheap and I can sell this Getzen for about $500 like I have seen so many go for on EBA.

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

Camellips, I'm sure you know that "red rot" is caused by de-zincification of the brass alloy which leaves relatively "straight" copper behind....hence the reddish color. There ain't no fix other than replacement. Sorry man... best you can hope for is to "fill the crankcase with sawdust" and sell it to the first person who wants an otherwise good flugel "for cheap".

(I somehow don't think the Getzen valve guarantee covers red rot of the valve cylinders! Of course.... IF IT DOES.... then you have a whole different sitcheashun.)

Best of luck with it.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

Help me to understand this.

There is no way to smooth out red rod in order to make the valves work?

I have been told that you can never totally get rid of red rot but it would seem that there has got to be some way to smooth it up so the valves would be free?

No?

Please educate me.

[ This Message was edited by: camel lips on 2004-05-01 19:00 ]

radiobob · Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject:

I would like to know this too. I have an otherwise nice horn that has pitting inside the leadpipe, and there must be something you can use to smooth it out. In the leadpipe I'm wondering if a coat of paraffin might not work. Valves are another matter of course. Is the pitting in your valves causing loss of compression or sticking?

Bob

Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026

Maybe a chemical cleaning would help.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

bgwbold · Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject:

Camel, unfortunately, DEG is not the same company as Getzen. Getzen has a warranty on its valves, I understand. I have not heard of any warranty on DEG valves.

Mike

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

When the zinc leaves the brass (gets eaten out by acids), what is left behind are HOLES in the brass. Leave the red rot long enough and the holes go THROUGH the brass. Tiny, almost microscopic holes that leak air. Perhaps a chem clean and maybe some light "lapping" with a super fine grit would slick things up enough for the valve to move smoothly.

Are you sure it's actually "red rot"? And not just a build up of some kind of varnish or oxide that could, through proper cleaning, be removed completely? The only horns I ever saw red rot in the valve bodies on were a Yamaha 2330 cornet and a slightly newer 2320 trumpet. My daughter's Yamaha 61 Tenor sax also has evidence of some red rot in a couple of the valve covers. Red rot usually shows up as small "spots" of pinkish or reddish hue that appears under the lacquer or starts small bubbles under the silver plate. A good tech can determine if there is red rot in the leadpipe (or elsewhere) sometimes before it starts to show on the outside of the horn.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

Not exactly sure.I have some redrot in my leadpipe of my old Bach STrad from 1969 and it looks the same as that.

I am taking into a local shop next week to see what he thinks it is.

I used some 800 grit stuff in it the other day and it didn't really seem to help any.

I will keep you guys posted.

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

There really is no way to get rid of red rot other than replacement of the parts. There are temporary fixes out there, but the problem would just come back over time. Think of it as cancer. You can cut out the big chunks, but the problem is still there under the surface just waiting to come out.

DEG and Getzen are two very seperate and different companies. There was a time that our other company, Allied Music, built horns for DEG, but these horns are not Getzens and are not covered by our warranty.

Sorry

Brett

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

Brent,

I knew that they were two separate companies.

I have tried a bunch of DEG horns out over my lifetime due to my association with Drum corps.Only the low brass horns are even worth speaking of.

DEG horns over the years have been made by so many low bidding contract companies and over seas companies it would be hard to determine who actually built this horn.But generally speaking all of the high brass DEG's out there only make good lamps.

I am taking it to the shop for a once over in the morning .I should have a report back soon.

JasonHarrelson · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 5:06 am Post subject:

I have seen every brand horn come in with red rot. You'd be surprised that we estimate 1 in 3 horns that come into our shop have evidence of this "cancer" as Brett put it. I agree, and use the same terminology, that red-rot is much like cancer and the only cure is to replace the part. Usually the leadpipe and tuning slide are most prone along with any place held or touched by hands. The only way to fix the valve casings is to replace them and that isn't cheap. Sorry for the bad news...but the good news is that if you keep your horn clean it is less likely to get cancer!

Jason
_________________
Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com

Druyff · Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 9:49 am Post subject:

Cancer? No way!
Red rot is more like caries. Think like a dentist. Drill the holes out with a very fine drill (the ones used for drilling printed circuits) and solder in a piece of copper/brass wire. The some filing and polishing. Problem solved.

camel lips · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 687

Ok,got back from the shop today.Its not redrot.He is not sure what it is but its not that.I suspect that it is old oil that has turned to a type of shellac(sp)

gonna try the chemical clean first and if need be he is going to polish the valves.

My local guy only charges $65 and that is for a chem clean and valve alignment.If he has to lap the valves its going to be $30 bucks for each valve.