Rascism in Jazz

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1456

efwb, do you and some of your cohorts here live in a vaccuum. THIS HAS BEEN THE DEBATE IN MANY JAZZ PERIODICALS AND BOOKS OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS GET INFORMED> IT IS AN ISSUE!!!!

etownfwd · Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:24 pm Post subject:

No, improver, I don't live in a vacuum. But, I do live in one of the most racist parts of "Pennsyltuckey". I don't think that anyone is doubting that racism does happen in the business of music. I think we are all doubting that it happens as frequently as you conspiracy theorists want us to believe. I still challenge you to show me evidence of Wynton's supposed racial bias. Please, I beg you to unwravel the counter I delivered earlier. Racism is self-perpeutating. The more someone re-enforces certain stereotypes, the more people begin to believe these false characterizations. Maybe we all need to spend more time practicing and less time worrying about this. Besides, even if we DO recognize that racism exists in the industry, what steps are YOU taking to stop it? If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
-efwd

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1456

im an improvising player in phx AZ and with little span for changing the racial culture in jazz. thats like asking me can you change the hip hop culture of the NBA? I actually think it will remain in the divide it exist in now, European Jazz and Wynton traditionalist.

wiseone2 · Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:07 am Post subject:

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1456

no way man. im not letting you get away with that. This thread was started by a cat who was asking an honest question. And i was giving an honest answer,one that has been debated in jazz media for a while. you may not like my answer but your not laying that back of the bus thing on me dude. I played all thru college with an all black group. some of my best friends are black and we talk about this all the time. there have been some terrible things done to black people in this country, none of which i would ever condone but that dosent mean there dosent exist a n attitude in the jazz community.

wiseone2 · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:55 am Post subject:

wiseone2 · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:59 am Post subject:

BJToile · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:28 am Post subject:

First of all I think it's over-exagerating to say that Jazz itself is racist. Racism is a choice that a stupid, not ignorant, person makes. I didn't really want to respond to this thread for the simple fact that this is an issue that RACIST people just won't let die! I am a white boy without a racist bone in my body...if I don't get the job; it never crosses my mind that "he" did because "he" was black. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen either way, but what good is it going to do to continue to throw this junk into everyone’s face. Look, I know that there were a lot of horrible things done to blacks, please know that I'm not downplaying those awful acts, but many of these same things were done to members of my family also (Irish & Italian).
I believe the main problem with racism doesn't lie in the groups, i.e. KKK/Black Panthers, but in the people that will say, "Oh, I'm not racist", and spend all of their time talking about racism, because in their hearts, they're the biggest racist of all.
Those horrible times are behind us...everyone is afforded the same exact rights by the constitution. If someone wants to act like they are better than the constitution, then take action on them, they're probably not worth working for or being around anyway. Let's just not make everything into a race "issue", it's just not necessary. Suck it up...if your not as good, then you're not as good...go home and practice. From golf to basketball, from playing the horn to playing crocet...if we as individuals don't want to get past it and relinquish it forever, then it's always going to be biting us in the rear, and quite frankly, I've just got too many other things to worry about.

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[ This Message was edited by: bjtoile on 2004-06-21 12:07 ]

Billy B · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 6:55 am Post subject:

Wow! I guess I'll take out my 10 foot pole. Racism is alive and well in all aspects of American life. This doesn't mean that individuals have to subscribe to such behavior. Racism is a very personal thing. It is just one of many forms of predjudices that exist in society. When I was younger my ability to play dance music from the thirties was questioned because of my age and the fact I was playing with older musicians. Show band gigs were a problem because I was overweight and didn't look right. But no predjudice has ben as profound as the race issue.
Trying to put this thing into a nutshell is impossible. There are just too many variables. If you go back and read post #1, I think you will find the answer in post #2. The answer is both yes and no. Kind of sounds like a Zen thing. Perhaps westerners need to stop trying to see everything as black or white. (Sorry for the pun).

Ken Burns. Any student of history will tell you that history is the most twisted and poorly presented subject of all. You must get your information from multiple sources and simply accept the fact that there is no clear and concise presentation of the facts by any one source. If you don't seek those sources, that is your fault. Wynton has done more to make the general public aware of Jazz than anyone of his time. Maybe you don't like Ken or Wynton. But if you don't acknowledge their contributions, you are exhibiting your own form of predjudice.

dwm1129 · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:53 am Post subject:

I haven't had time to reply to this thread lately ... but some of my statements were over exaggerated ... most probably because I was little ticked and tired. I did not mean to come off as one who thinks in terms of race rather than individuality ... although sometimes I do when I think of things on a large scale where it's impossable to think in terms of individuality. We all do, we all have inherent bias that we grew up with and although we've grown up and adopted new ideas those bias are still there in one way or another (my opinion). There is no right and wrong answer to this topic ... as someone said it's not black and white and frankly a ton of people here have problems seeing shades of grey. You know it's okay to have several different opinions of one subject ... hell I can debate myself on one subject and truly believe both sides, It's called having the ability to think and reason.

_londonhusker · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Oct 2002 Posts: 658

Nice contribution, Billy B!

Dave
londonhusker

Jazzalive · Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject:

I've been lurking on this topic since it was originally posted. Has anyone else noticed a lack of attendance or performers in jazz from the African American community. No, I'm not talking about the top-level players and recording musicians. I'm referring to the grass roots. At most venues for jazz and blues that I've attended, I've seen less and less attendees of African-American descent.

- Most kids playing in the local college and high school jazz festivals I've attended were white.
- Most judges at these same festivals were white.
- Most professors, teachers and sponsors of these events, were white.
- Most audience members at these festivals were all white.

While this is an offshoot of the topic, there does appear to be a racial/cultural divide. Does this imply racism? Not necessarily. Is it truly a racial divide, or a cultural divide?

Any thoughts?

Boy meets Horn · Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:58 am Post subject:

It's interesting that you brought that up. I am black, and I understand what you are talking about. For the first three years i was in jazz band in high school i was the only black kid(out of two jazz bands at the school), and the last year i was in HS there were 2 of us. To tell the truth, I dont think jazz is considered the hip thing to do in the Black community anymore. I was a member of the Texas All-State Jazz ensemble this year and there were 2 black guys, myself included.

Racism is an issue, people make it seem as if it was such a long time ago that people were rioting in the streets over racial/equality issues. My parents are in there fifties and they were around to see segregation. America has come a long way, but there is still a long way to go.

About racism in jazz, i dont think it is that big of an issue. I think it all comes down to the way you play. I am not a big Chet Baker fan, I thought he was cool at first but then I heard Freddie, thats a personal opinion. I think Chet Baker gets old. It isnt bc he's white, its bc i dont care for his playing. Thats the way it is in jazz. I am 17 yrs old and i get this. Your sound has to match what the person is looking for, plain and simple. You can cry racism all you want, but thats what it comes down to.

A Chet Baker type player wouldnt lend itself well to LCJO setting, it just wouldnt. But I wouldnt want to hear Louis Armstrong on Take Five either. It all has to do with the way you sound, not your skin color, well nowadays at least.

If I do remember correctly, the first Jazz recording was from The New Orleans Dixieland Jass Band i think i may not be correct, anyway, they were white guys. This has always been an issue, why do you think Elvis was so popular. Cross-over appeal. But thats a different topic.

The point I am trying to make is that it is all about sound, if you sound hip, you wont have a problem(Ryan Kisor, he's very hip. Same with Tom Harell) if you dont sound hip, you will have tons of problems, now i guess you could call that discrimination.

As far as the Ken Burns Jazz series, I think it kind of rushed its way through the last half, and as a result had a bunch of holes. I think it focused more on accuracy at the very beginning than in the last fifty years. Keep in mind, Wynton has been known for his promoting a full knowledge of the music. Not the History of music starting with Freddie Hubbard. Anyone who has listened to any of the really early recordings of Wynton (Art Blakey days) knows that Freddie Hubbard was a strong influence in his playing. Did you also know that Wynton took lessons with Woody Shaw before he died. Wynton also neglected to mention Woody Shaw. What does that mean? Wynton was more focused on the beginning roots of jazz. The whole idea of the series was the promotion of the idea that jazz is an "American Art Form," and yet all you hear about is how he left out Chet Baker and didnt talk about Stan Kenton.

Geez, this post is pretty long, sorry. But i guess this is the best way to put it jazz is alot like conversation, if you arent saying much, who will want to hear you. Likewise, if you are boring, who will want to hear you. Or if you talk too much about race instead of shutting up and playing the music and truly taking place at innovation at its highest, then who will want to hear you.

That is all.

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

Good post Boy meets horn. I agree with pretty much everything you said there.

There's nothing wrong with a black or latino person playing white big band music or classical. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with a white person playing the blues or salsa either. To me, attitude is most important. No matter what color you are, be gracious and respectful, and I will respect you.

improver · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1456

Thats the problem right there. you wouldnt here the white cats saying Freddie aaint hip but heres a black cat telling us Chet(the cat of the cool school)aint hip enough for lcjo. Theres my point

mark936 · Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject:

I never got a call back from the Mercer Ellington band in the seventies because I was a white cat.

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Boy meets Horn · Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:34 pm Post subject:

I know, I saw the Ken Burns documentary.

Ruechel · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:56 pm Post subject:

OK. First of all, Jazz IS Classical music. period. it's the classical music of this country. secondly, don''t confuse racism with prejudice. (racism is something projected from a MAJORITY unto a MINORITY) Someone in this post mentioned that we're past this time and things are getting better. not true! racism against people of color is alive and well in the US and if there was such a thing as prejudical behavior from people of color towards white people (WHICH THERE ISN'T) i would say that's the price we pay for 400+ years of physical and mental oppression. the fact is people of color are the true orginators of this beautiful art form and this society has done nothing to honor that. jazz is NOT widely respected and listened to in this country. that is a tremendous falsehood. europe is a lot further ahead because europeans (while no less racist) have and understand culture and true art to a much larger degree than americans (i am talking about % of the population) why don't you log on to the website of the jazz Foundation Of America/Jazz Musiscian's Emergency Fund and learn how so many of the people that helped create and perform Jazz (while having to go through the back door of the venue) are now close to being homeless and broke. That's how widely respected Jazz is. (DONATE some $$ you normally spend on beer while you're at it). White people will NEVER know what it means to be Black in America. and that includes myself. The comment about white musicians and black musicians keeping to themselves is a large heap of BS as well. brian Lynch played both with horace silver and Art blakey for a long time. you think they would have hired anyone based on race? look at their track record. the point is, at the time a lot of cats who played at this level were black. same with miles: he didn't give a f$%# if you were white as long as you could play -and there are various examples.

ask tom harrell, ryan kisor, seneca black, claudio roditi and whoever else if they feel discriminated against by black musicians.

and if freddie keppard refused is because he was wise and probably had seen the white establishment stealing ideas and concepts and then claiming them. it's only happened about a million times beginning from the earliest times of the blues.

if you're a white musician and you think you're being discriminated against because you're white, i'd say stop bitching and practice.

lastly, IMPROVER and FADO, if i were you, i'd be a little bit more respectful to a person like Wilmer Wise who lived the life and played with the cats. His knowledge is first hand. So try and be quiet and listen.

[ This Message was edited by: Ruechel on 2004-07-25 19:59 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Ruechel on 2004-07-25 20:01 ]

[ This Message was edited by: ruechel on 2004-07-25 20:48 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Ruechel on 2004-07-25 20:49 ]

Boy meets Horn · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject:

Amen to that brother.
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