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Chicago School

“Comment and Suggestion Box”



Chicagoman
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Posted: 2001-12-21 11:12

Hello all,
Please place your comments, questions and suggestions here.

Chicagoman


BTW: I will clean out this box once per week.
_________________




evolution

Posted: 2001-12-27 11:13

I just explored these topics. First I thought about learning
superhops. Now I want Chicago give a chance Is it really true
that you don't have to take special care of the muscular
activity for all the high notes using the Chicagotechnique?

Thanks for your interesting posts. Hope to read more soon.

johannes




Chicagoman

Posted: 2001-12-27 11:28

Hi Johannes,


After learning some good breathing habits and a good sound
concept, then you'll be well armed to play pretty much
anything. On this forum I'm trying to get people to understand
that YOU can be the best too!
That status isn't only reserved for a select few, but for
everyone who wants it bad enough. I've learned some GREAT
habits and my range is just as good as anyone else's. I
recently played the Grand Russian Fantasia by Jules Levy, and
played the Wynton Marsalis cadenza. There is a Eb above high C
at the end. I NAILED it and barely put any effort into it.
How? Because I wasn't worried about it. And I did NO extra
training of the high register prior to the show. I just heard
it and played it. Its that easy if you make it that easy. Its
just music, so have fun!

Looking forward to more of your questions,

Chicagoman
_________________




Roddyo-iii<O

Posted: 2001-12-27 11:34

Hi!
I'm not very familiar with the ''Chicago School' of thought
although I am obviously aware of Mr. Jacobs etc...

Would it be convenient for you to list the individual teachers
names along with the books that are available.

I am in the UK and not that many of us (I don't think) are
that ''au fait'' with this line of thinking!

thanks in anticipation.
_________________
Roddyo-iii<O




evolution

Posted: 2001-12-27 20:19

Sounds like a dream. I have worked hard with lots of
different schools. But I didn't get a really break through.
Highest note I can hit in a gig securely is a high C. To hit
it I have to play ff.
You mentioned good breathing habits and a good soundconcept.
Do you think the breathing exercises you posted before and the
wind-and-song approach is enough or do I need a book....

Thank You for your fast replies

Sincerely

johannes



Big Jake

Posts: 13Posted: 2001-12-28 07:43

evolution
I had the same problem as you. Let me tell you I set myself up
for disaster by not going straight to the problem and getting
a good emboucure specific method like Caruso or Callet
Superchops.
I almost ruined my playing altogether trusting in what a
poster recently categorized as the "Play and pray methods". I
can vouch for that myself. If just playing and hearing the
note you want to hit could fix your problem then you would of
already fixed it yourself.
I ran from the thought of an embouchure change because it
scared me. However it was the only thing that helped my
playing.
Anthony






Chicagoman

Posted: 2001-12-28 10:10

Hi again Johannes,
I SINCERELY believe that you could make GREAT strides in your
playing if you adopt some simpler methodology and breathing
habits. Just print off the breathing exercises in the other
thread, and read the other articles. Please ask as many
specific questions as you would like, and I shall do the best
I can to answer. There are SO many other breathing exercises
that I haven't posted yet, but these work great!

Sincerely,

Chicagoman
_________________




Chicagoman

Posted: 2001-12-28 10:17

Quote:



On 2001-12-28 07:43, Big Jake wrote:
evolution
I had the same problem as you. Let me tell you I set
myself up for disaster by not going straight to the
problem and getting a good emboucure specific method
like Caruso or Callet Superchops.
I almost ruined my playing altogether trusting in what
a poster recently categorized as the "Play and pray
methods". I can vouch for that myself. If just playing
and hearing the note you want to hit could fix your
problem then you would of already fixed it yourself.
I ran from the thought of an embouchure change because
it scared me. However it was the only thing that
helped my playing.
Anthony


[ This Message was edited by: Big Jake on 2001-12-28
08:25 ]






Hi Anthony,
Good opinion. I'm glad that you've found a system that truly
works for you. I have one question however. What do you mean
by "embochure specific?" The Chicago System believes VERY much
that the muscles around the embochure should develop properly,
BUT the embochure itself(the meaty red part that buzzes;its
only about a centimeter), does not need any isometric
training, because you can't make it stronger. Its just soft
tissue. I think maybe there is some confusion as two what the
embochure actually is. Its not the muscles as a whole, its
MUCH smaller than most people think. Kind of like an Oboe
reed.

I have read quite a bit of material about Superchops and
Caruso, and being QUITE good, I find some questionable points.
I simply think that those systems are too physical. Its like
you must wait years and years before being able to turn on
"music" mode. Just my thoughts. Clear up any confusion that my
statement holds.

Chicagoman

_________________


PH

Posted: 2001-12-28 11:01

There is nothing "embouchure specific" about the Caruso
approach. You just do the calisthenics-blow and concentrate on
timing. I can count the number of times Carmine specifically
mentioned the embouchure on my thumbs in several years worth
of regular lessons. The goal is "balance", not embouchure.
This balance involves the entire playing system.

Surprisingly, Caruso is very similar to the Chicago school
(and the Adam approach as well) in that the player is
discouraged from micro-managing muscles and muscle groups. The
conscious mind places certain demands. In the case of Caruso
those demands are primarily rhythmic. In the case of the
Chicago school and Mr. Adam the demands are more tone and
music oriented. The unconscious mind teaches the muscles how
to work through repetition and obsessing on the goal.
Eventually (and surprisingly quickly) this approach develops
different and more efficient physical habits. The playing
evolves and the embouchure develops, but it is done in a
music-conscious (or in the case of Caruso rhythm-conscious)
way rather than in a self-conscious or meat-conscious way.

Just because the conscious mind is ignoring how the muscles
work and how the body feels and the unconscious mind is placed
in charge of the control and development of the muscles and
other physical playing apparatus doesn't mean we are "playing
and praying". Jacobs, Herseth, Adam, Caruso, et al have
nothing in common with professor Harold Hill!




Pat

Posts: 21Posted: 2001-12-28 22:53

Yes, I recently got a copy of the Caruso book and my first
impression was that his approach was the antithesis of the
Adam and Chicago approaches because of his discussion of and
apparent emphasis on the muscles.--But on further reading and
when you get into the exercises you realize that he actually
is trying to keep the muscle movements (and any emphasis on
them) to a minimum. I believe that is one reason, for example,
that you keep the mouthpiece on the set embouchure at rests
and breathe through the nose. You don't have to think about
the embouchure and can concentrate on timing and the blow.



PH

Posted: 2001-12-29 10:02

Precisely right, Pat!

This is why (to me) these 3 schools of thought are so similar
in essence and so complementary-IF YOU STUDY THEM TO THE POINT
WHERE YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THEIR ESSENCE!

Happy New Year, cats!

Pat Harbison



trumpetteacher1

Posted: 2001-12-29 12:02

Pat H, Pat N, Dan, everybody,

For some time now, I have felt that any argument in favor of
an outcome-based approach like Jacobs or Adam would eventually
tie itself to unconscious mind theory. Pat Harbison, I
congratulate you for seeing the big picture, and accurately
fitting Caruso into the larger scheme (I had several email
conversations with Charly where I also expressed the idea of
"timing" as an unconscious mind access port). However, trumpet
playing does not exist in a vacuum. The mechanisms underlying
embouchure development are similar in nature to any other
highly coordinated activity, such as hitting a golf ball or
sending an arrow to a target. The unconscious mind plays the
same role in all.

In declaring that a similar unconscious mind access is the the
essence of Adam, Caruso, and Jacobs, you are traveling down a
well trodden pathway, as many see the unconscious mind as both
the source and goal of all learning. Every teacher wants more
unconscious access to the student; there is nothing new about
it. The only real question is, what is the best way to develop
this access?

Before you proclaim that "obsessing on the goal" is the best
approach, I think that a wider view of unconscious mind theory
is in order. There are literally thousands of studies on the
subject, many of them sports related. And, theories abound.
Especially compelling are those presented by Bandler and
Grinder in the field of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming),
and the case studies of psychologist Milton Ericson. After
studying these and other materials, what you will eventually
discover is that outcome-based methods have a limited
effectiveness, due to "unconscious filtering" present in each
individual, which can cause long term blocks in progress.
Physical, consciously directed interventions (hey, the mind
and body are intimately linked) are sometimes the only way to
break the locks. This approach is outlined in my book "The
Balanced Embouchure."

I would never discount the power of the unconscious mind. But
getting it to respond exactly the way you want it to is
another story.

This thread is so rich, and I want to explore many more
specific points, but others need their turn. Thanks for
digging in so deep!
_________________
Jeff



Roddyo-iii<O

Posted: 2001-12-29 12:17

Nobody has helped me out yet (5 or 6 post above) with
who/what the Chicago school is! --could somebody point me
toward some specific books and/or info.
I realise this may be a backwards step for some of you
guys...but I would surely appreciate catchin' up a bit!

Thanks in advance...if I'm ''bustin' yer chops just let me
know!!
_________________
Roddyo-iii<O