learning to play a shallow mouthpiece

mike ansberry · Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject:

I have never been able to play a shallow mouthpiece. I always "bottom out". My chops touch the bottom of the cup and stop vibrating.

I've been working with an R&B group for a while. I play my old 7C when playing the 1st tpt book in that group. But it is a h*%# of a lot of work to do it on that stupid chunk of metal. Now I'm starting to work with a couple more R&B groups. I need some help!

I recently purchased a Marcinkiewicz "Bobby Shew" mouthpiece. I really want to learn to play it. I figured I'd keep playing the Bach 7C on jobs and during some of my practice sessions, and work on the Bobby Shew piece, maybe starting with long tones and scales.

Any advice you guys can give would be greatly appreciated.

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[ This Message was edited by: mike ansberry on 2004-06-02 21:48 ]

bachstrad72 · Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject:

if you find that you don't bottom out on that piece, then great! Don't practice on it! Just use it when you need it, otherwise it will lose its effect.
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mike ansberry · Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject:

I do bottom out on the Bobby Shew mouthpiece. I just hope that if I practice on it, I can learn to play it without bottoming out in it.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

textr · Heavyweight Member Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1678

I would definietly practice on the piece that you are going be working the gig with, but you kind of have to
ease into it . I played a Bob Reeves 42 ES for many years and never experienced any " bottoming out "
I think that if you are trying to play too much too soon you are tiring your enbouchure and that could be causing
the bottoming out felling. Also you have to be careful not to OVERBLOW a shallow piece, I would
suggest that you back off a little bit and let the mouthpiece do it's job. It is really about breath control.
I now play a Reeves 42S which is just a tad deeper cup.

Welk · Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:02 am Post subject:

Doing Caruso exercice wil sort that problem, i use an X cup and I've stopped bottoming out in less than two week.

ALLCHOPS · Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:16 am Post subject:

Call Bruce @ Northern Brass! He'll solve all of your problems and you'll enjoy the experience!

Tony G

_londonhusker · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Oct 2002 Posts: 658

Hi Mike,

I spent most of my younger years playing deeper mouthpieces, the CGP in particular. After a rather lengthy layoff, I'm selecting my "clubs" based on their appropriateness for the "golf shot." I happy to say that using the same rim and varying the cup depth as well as the backbore is working very effectively to arrive at the sound I desire for each playing situation.

Once I had decided to play seriously once again, I did not wish to return to any improper habits I had developed and subsequently lost during my hiatus. One of my most useful tools to enhance my return to the instrument has been the James Thompson Buzzing Book, specifically for its value exposing balance and efficiency issues. So I have gone slowly, studying Derek Reaban's artful posts, all the while attempting to remove everything from my mechanics that does not contribute positively to my playing. I believe it's mostly small things, but I don't wish to have to deal with them again now that I have time, desire, and a bit more maturity on my side.

Lastly, I have constructed a multi-purpose mouthpiece buzzing/leadpipe blowing setup that is both portable and perfectly matched to my instrument. I had my 25 year old #7 leadpipe replaced with same when my Calicchio was overhauled this year. I have cleaned it up, mounted a Berp onto it, and I currently do the Thompson exercises, Adam-type leadpipe blowing, and Caruso six notes each day with it. It is easy to hold and steer, as I slip my left hand pinky into the hook and grab the pipe, while my right hand fingers "play" the opposite knuckles. I generally try to use my less comfortable(shallower and tighter) mouthpiece combinations (this month it is my 5S/Q) on these routines, and I have found this to be quite helpful adjusting to new equipment without picking up unwanted habits in the process.

Dave
londonhusker

Pops · Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:19 am Post subject:

You bottom out because you are letting the lips protrute into the cup.

People who play shallow pieces NEVER let this happen.

You may be trying to play with the lips puckered, you may not have the muscle strength to hold the curl, or you may be playing with an open aperture which can't hold a curl.

Start doing the pencil exercise. IT can usually solve this really fast.

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It is the Smart application of hard work that gets you there.

[ This Message was edited by: Pops on 2004-06-03 09:19 ]

gerrit2 · Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:30 am Post subject:

'Balanced Embouchure' written by Jeff Smiley will solve the problem.

Welk · Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:54 pm Post subject:

It is always fun to see that when someone has a problem, eveyrone come with their solution:

- Pencil exercice
- Caruso
- Balance Embouchure
- Buyting new equipment
- ...

I think we can sometime be confusing... I find it funny... but it is good to show up the different possibilites!
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52' Olds Recording LA
Wick gold 4X

-=0=-Music is what gives us the beat, but it is also what makes beat our heart -=0=-

roelf · Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:10 am Post subject:

Hey Mike,

I like what Pops said
"You may be trying to play with the lips puckered, you may not have the muscle strength to hold the curl, or you may be playing with an open aperture which can't hold a curl."

I switch back and forth on a Bach 3c and a Shilke 13a4a.

The band I play requires high resister playing. I was getting frustrated at the end of a 4 hour gig where I was totally tired.

I decided to change mouthpieces. In the process I learned what Pops was mentioning.

Now when I play on the 13a4a. It is almost like I don't have to use any muscles in trying to play that mouthpiece. You have to stay relaxed .... especially on the high register stuff. If you tighten up......nothing will come out. It is a delicate balance.

Hope this helps

Roel
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http://www.StarLineWebdesign.com

NTlead · Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:20 am Post subject:

I made the switch from my old 7C to a Yamaha Allen Vizzutti (a fairly shallow cup) a couple years ago, and it took two or three weeks of working at it before I could stop bottoming out on it. Luckily, I did.

So, in my limited experience it just takes adjusting to. I didn't focus on making sure my lips weren't in the bottom of the cup like some of these guys are suggesting, but doing that easily could have sped up the process.

mike ansberry · Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:55 pm Post subject:

Well, after about 3 weeks, I'm giving up on the Bobby Shew mouthpiece. I can play it for a short time, but even then the sound is so harsh that I hate it. I got out my old Vizzutti mouthpiece and started working on it instead. It is wider than the 7C i usually play on. The cup is a bit deeper than the Bobby Shew. I drilled the throat out to a 26.

I'm making progress on this piece. I can play my Schlossberg long tones, Irons, Walter Smith, and Caruso exercises on it fairly well. When I play it the G above High C is much easier to play than on the 7C. I think I'm going to have to learn to not pour as much air through it as the 7C. When I back off on it, it centers better and is much easier to work with. When I play the 7C I really have to muscle the air into it to get the extreme range out.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

Mike,

It sounds like you've hit upon the real solution: don't blow so hard. Shallow mouthpieces offer greater efficiency and sizzle in the high register, but you really have to let them do their thing. I've mostly played orchestral stuff, myself, and found myself bottoming out a lot on shallow mouthpieces before I learned to ease up on them a bit. I'd recommend trying a Reeves 41M or 41S, you might find that they are easier to deal with than the Shew model. Just my .02.

Have fun!
Bob

LeeC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5730

There is such a thing as "lower register endurance" on a shallow piece. Acheiving a good strong low register on a small one is crucial to success especially up high.

So do a lot of middle and lower register Clarkes, long tones, marches whatever on your "scream piece". When you start to approach a passable sound downstairs I'll bet the bottoming out will cease.

You'll probably still want to use a larger piece for general work. You can only do so much with the lower regsiter sound on the little mouthpieces.

_bugleboy · Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject:

Try a Bach 7D

mike ansberry · Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:19 pm Post subject:

I played a 3D for a while, but it wasn't much different than the 3C. I currently play a 7E on my picc, but it doesn't help much on the big horn.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

_londonhusker · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Oct 2002 Posts: 658

Mike,

You may want to try James Thompson's Buzzing Book and CD. I try to do it everyday, but I switch the mouthpieces around. Started it with Warburton 5MD/Q about 5 weeks ago and now alternate days with a 5S/KT*. I am gradually developing useful playing habits and consistency on both setups.

You might like the Warburton S tops, as the alpha angle is closer to perpendicular, and helps prevent bottoming out.

Dave
londonhusker

Bruce Lee · Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:11 am Post subject:

Hi, Mike!

GREAT advice... especially from LeeC! While a shallow mouthpiece should help in the upper register, it shouldn't stifle the sound in the mid and low registers.

Could you tell us what your "every day" mouthpiece is? That's an extremely important part of the "puzzle". Thanks, Mike!

Best always,
Bruce
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mike ansberry · Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:10 am Post subject:

My everyday mouthpiece has been a 7C Bach for quite a few years. I gave up on the Bobby Shew model a couple of weeks ago. I've been playing an AllenVizzutti Marcinkiewicz for a couple of weeks. It's got a wider rim than the Shew, and a slightly deeper cup, with a little more bite on the rim. The Vizzutti is about the only mouthpiece I've been playing lately. I'm working a jazz festival today and wanted to have control of the new mouthpiece.

At first I had trouble with it, but I've been doing Caruso, the pencil ex., and Arbans up an octave. I think the best advice came from Jim Manley. He said I was probably trying to muscle the piece. He suggested I learn to back off and let the mouthpiece work for me. Now I seem to be able to play it all day.

Wonder what will happen when I have my next legit gig and have to go back to the 7C?
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.