CSO audition...again

Derek Reaban · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:01 am Post subject:

This conversation about “experience” reminds me of the story that Ray Crisara told at the ITG conference in Denver. He mentioned that he had gone through the very intensive training at the Ernest S. Williams music school and then was offered the opportunity to play and teach trumpet at the University of Michigan with William Revelli. This was in 1940. In that same year, Benny Baker the principal trumpet player with the NBC Orchestra had an unfortunate playing injury and NBC was in need of a new 1st trumpet.

I found the exact quote about this story in the Keith Winking article entitled “Ray Crisara: Teaching by Example in the March 2000 ITG Journal on pages 35 and 36.

FTee · Veteran Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 455

"Adolph Herseth was in the Army and graduated from the New England Conservatory. Arthur Rodzinsky, then Music Director of the Chicago Symphony, auditioned Herseth in his hotel room and after a few hours told Herseth, 'Congratulations, you are the Principal Trumpet of the Chicago Symphony.' Herseth was stunned. Rodzinsky then asked, 'What experience do you have.' . . . Herseth told him 'None[.]'"

From http://abel.hive.no/oj/musikk/trompet/ntf/jacobs.html

The question in auditions should how well one plays. Vosburgh was 21 when he won the job in CSO in 1979; Ward Stare, Principal Trombone in the Lyric Opera, was 18 or 19 when he won the job, and he now has tenure; there are a number of other examples out there.

I will continue to believe that the CSO's requirement is ridiculous, all the more so given the fact that they can't find a principal candidate that they like. Adding a spurious rotary trumpet condition adds nothing to the search, other than a faux sense of exclusivity to a process that has already broken down.

MrClean · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:35 am Post subject:

Goodbye.

FTee · Veteran Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 455

Two things: the Lyric job is not a cakewalk, contrary to popular belief. Second, playing next to Bud was no cakewalk either, either emotionally or musically. Therefore, I don't think the difference was quite as big as might be thought.

As far as who the CSO hires, of course that person will have to be solid. That doesn't mean there isn't room to grow. Even some established players would take time to fit in, especially in that section. Maybe a strong-willed, talented but relatively inexperienced player is what they need. Who knows. What we do know is that the CSO's process has been a failure.

The CSO has the power to put whatever conditions they want in their audition process. That does not, however, make those conditions sensible or equitable. Moreover, they have been playing rotaries for decades now, but this is the first time they ever have placed a rotary requirement in the audition. I think it's a red herring. But what do I know; I'm just some schmuck who thinks the CSO sounds weak and boring compared to their legacy. Apparently, myself and the droves of people staying away from "Symphony Center" these days are mistaken.

MrClean · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:52 pm Post subject:

Goodbye.

_Clarino · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject:

Perhaps instrumental use should only be specified in the later rounds. The preliminary rounds should be a place to assess the ability of each candidate. Otherwise you risk turning away a potential candidate who could be perfect for the job just because he/she is not as comfortable on rotary/picc.

With regard to tradition, I don't recall the list specifying C trumpet for most of the excerpts, but C trumpet has become traditional in the CSO and most (all?) big North American orchestras. As a Brit, were I auditioning for the CSO (as if!) I would use my Bb for most stuff. Would the committee axe me just for that? Would they insist that I use C trumpet?

I'm not trying to be arguementative, I just think that the CSO are being a little unrealistic at the moment. They have not had a principal trumpet for over a year now. You might be tempted to think that the player they are looking for retired three years ago and cannot be replaced.

FTee · Veteran Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 455

I am aware that rotaries are different than pistons.

I think it would be reasonable for CSO to ditch the rotary requirement for prelims and judge players solely on their musical product. Once the finals come around, they could then require rotaries. The benefit of this approach is that it doesn't scare away younger or less-affluent players who might be truly gifted, and would give them a real reason (and opportunity) to obtain a rotary for the final round. That is, given the long odds for ANYONE in a prelim round, some players might not attend the audition because of the rotary requirement. If they made it to the finals, they would have much more incentive to get a rotary by hook or by crook; more people might also be willing to lend them such a horn if they were in the finals. It is not sufficient to say that the Committee might not ask for any rotary excerpts at the prelims -- by then, the disincentive has already worked its effect.

In any event, I'm bowing out of this discussion. I have to go light a candle at my Martin Kretzer/rotary trumpet shrine.

FTee · Veteran Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 455

My apologies to Clarino for echoing his (her?) comments. I was in the midst of posting my manifesto when Clarino's message was posted. Not trying to be a plagiarizer, you know. I might get sued.

_Clarino · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject:

His.

Don't worry, I can't afford a solicitor. :smile:

[ This Message was edited by: Clarino on 2004-07-08 16:23 ]

Mzony · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:20 pm Post subject:

I still don't see what the big deal is. This is looking trite at best.
Does this mean they should not ask to hear the Magnifact on the B minor Mass in the first round, because people may feel uncomfortable playing a piccolo?
It is in my opinion that not one person can learn to play the rotary proficently in a couple of months let alone a couple of days, so should the candidate aquire a rotary after advancing he/she would have a terrible time playing the instrument in the audition.
Furthermore, I am of the opinion that the ONLY reason somebody should audition is to WIN the job they are auditioning for. If they want a job in the CSO then they should simply find a way to prepare the list to the best of their abilities within the guidleines of organization's procedures. What does it matter what is heard in the prelims, semis, or finals? Wouldn't the performer have to prepare the list with the same intensity anyhow?
If one should have a problem with the procedures of the organization, than don't audition.
I agree, playing principal trumpet in a major orchestra with as rough of a schedule as the CSO is about as difficult of a job as there is. There is not a lot of time for trial and error. A principal Trumpet can make or break any concert for the entire organization...Whether it be Brahms, Beethoven, or Mahler.
There won't be a lot of time for a candidate to familiarize him/herself with an instrument that is completely foreign to them and still have a high success margin.
This orchestra is different than it was 60 years ago as are almost all musical organizations. The demands are quite challenging and the schedules are gruelling. I don't see it as asking too much of an individual to display basic abilities on all the tools required for that position at anytime during their audition procedures.
Again, the only thing a performer can hope to control is his/her preperation for the main event. The next thing the player should/could control is his/her performance at the main event. Those are the only factors we as performers are able to control...So focus on that. Let the audition committee squabble about the rest.

Mike

trumplyr · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:48 pm Post subject:

Am I the only one who finds it, er, interesting that a number of known, major symphony players have replied with an answer that is, essentially, "if it's required....do it", and, "it's no big deal that it's being asked for".

On the other hand, we have players who have not reached those levels of achievement in their careers (or dreams....I know, I don't really know who the posters are, but I'm willing to bet.....) who think this requirement is "unfair", "unrealistic" and other various complaints that I can't even remember anymore.

Hey guys, if you're willing to pay to have these guys tell you about embouchure, air, equipment and everything else under the sun........why not just believe them on this one and move on?

Edit: I deleted the edit because I meant it to be funny, but, it didn't come off that way to me._________________
Marty

"Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is the best."
Frank Zappa

[ This Message was edited by: trumplyr on 2004-07-08 17:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: trumplyr on 2004-07-08 17:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: trumplyr on 2004-07-08 17:59 ]

FTee · Veteran Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 455

Okay, I lied. I'm not done with this conversation. Mzony (or was it Nonsense Disseminator?) said "Wouldn't the performer have to prepare the list with the same intensity anyhow?" Duh. No kidding. I said nothing about the intensity of preparation. Of course one prepares for an audition in an attempt to win. The question is simply whether the CSO ought to require rotaries in a preliminary audition. You seem to think I'm advocating giving the job to a snot-nosed 14 year old from West Farquhart Idaho (no offense to you Idahoans). My point, to make it crystal clear, is this: they ought not to give a disincentive to potentially fabulously talented candidates on the basis of a dumb audition requirement. I still maintain that someone who has more talent (but less experience) than a competent player in a regional orchestra should be given a chance; for, after all, the more experienced player may have reached his zenith, while the more talented one may have far to go.

Oh, and by the way trumplyr, I am not paying these gentlemen for lessons. Their opinions are worthy, but not necessarily conclusive. But I see your point. I'm done.

[ This Message was edited by: FTee on 2004-07-08 17:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: FTee on 2004-07-08 17:52 ]

MrClean · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject:

Goodbye.

Mzony · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject:

My last statement on this issue:
If a player were to advance and win the audition without the rotary, what would this individual do when it came time 1 month later to play a principal part with the CSO in Concert on rotary trumpet?
I maintain that this instrument takes a long time to REALLY learn. There are changes in our approach and in our equipment to facillitate a change from rotary to piston or vice versa effectively. Trust me, I was really struggling with Rotary Trumpets for a good 2 and a half years. I called them Hitler trumpets and did anything I could to get out of using them.
We would like to think as performers that the Principal Trumpet player has carte blanche on the equipment he would like to use, but this isn't true. Conductors INSIST in some cases that the rotary trumpet be used. I know of a couple of idiotic baton weilders who actullay travel with a set of them so they can enforce their use.
This is a new era and we better get ready for whatever is required.

Mike

robert_white · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583

[ This Message was edited by: robert_white on 2004-07-08 19:29 ]

Vin DiBona · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:46 pm Post subject:

Mzony has put things in clear perspective. If you want that job, you had better be totally prepared and be an astonishingly great player and, most importantly, a great musician.
We all know what a staggeringly great player Bud was but he was also an incredibly gifted musician. He made music first. There are many technically gifted players out there who are boring to listen to because they don't play musically. You will not get the CSO job unless you are musical.
You want that job? Be prepared to be able to play absolutely any trumpet they ask you to use on any tune they want you to play and make music with it whether is is a rotary, piston or slide trumpet.

FTee · Veteran Member Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 455

"Somehow the people who play those instruments [bassoons] figure out a way to get their hands on quality tools."

Did you really mean to use that language in the context of bassoon players?

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:14 pm Post subject:

Mike --

I believe the official expression is, in fact, "Hitlerphones."

******

I think those people who are offended by this requirement are introducing a whole lot of extraneous reasoning into the argument. The bottom line is that the purpose of an audition is to evaluate whether candidates are capable of doing the job. If rotary trumpet is part of the job, it is perfectly reasonable to expect it to be part of the audition. Period.

That is all the Nonsense I will Disseminate today.

MrClean · Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject:

Goodbye.

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888

It doesn't seem like the CSO is having much luck finding somebody under their present system. May I suggest, instead of holding auditions, that they invite established players who they are interested in, for a trial? There are probably players out there that are interested, but refuse to go audition. Why not just invite these players to play for a month or two? Certainly, you will get a better idea of how a player fits in to the orchestra better this way, than listening to an audition where the player has to play alone.