Want a Modern Sound!!

[Boy meets Horn]

I was just wondering what I could do to attain the Modern sound so many current Jazz musicians have. I have heard that a lot of modern players use the pentatonic scales, but i dont know how to use pentatonics without sounding corny. I've even done some transcribing but I am still having a hard time incoporating it in my playing. So, if anybody knows how i could go about obtaining a more modern sound, please help.
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Everyone wants to be the hero but no one wants to slay the dragon (practice).

-Wynton Marsalis

[the chief]

This may not be for you, but it is something I'm going to do.....

Get yourself one of those "Silent Brass" mutes and plug it into an FX box (like a Digitech, Korg Pandora's box, or just some stompboxes), run that out through a small P.A. system.

Tweak FX at will. You're better off using an FX box that you can control with your feet. A 'Crybaby' Wah pedal comes to mind.
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"Your mind is your kingdom; that's where you exist"

[cperret]

I'm too tired to write much... but here are a few suggestions:

First of all, I remember expressing the same sentiment to a teacher at the Aebersold Jazz camp a few years back. I was upset that I didn't sound more modern. She (the teacher) replied, "How many hours have you spent learning bebop language?" I answered that I had been working on it for years, both in high school and in college. Then she asked, "Well, how long have you been working on modern sounds?" (Not long) "...Well, there's your answer!" The point is, you don't have to relearn the language of jazz, but you have at least to learn a new dialect. It takes time, and it doesn't come all at once.

Fortunately there are a lot of resources available. You're already using the absolutely best one - recordings. If you want to play like Woody Shaw, keep transcribing him! It'll sink in and find it's way into your playing. Find more players whose sound you think is 'modern', and keep emulating them. Figure out how they use pentatonic scales in their solos, lift some ideas, and start incorporating them into your playing. Keep expanding your knowledge of jazz theory, and keep expanding your ears. A lot of guys like Woody Shaw use unconventional scales or chord substitutions to get a different sound. Finally, there are some books you might find helpful, like David Baker's "Modern Concepts In Improvisation" and David Liebman's "A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony/Melody".

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask us. (There are, I'm sure, many more 'modern' trumpet players on this forum than I.) In fact, even if you have a question regarding a specific tune or set of changes, throw it out there! It would be a welcome change to the "Who is better, Kenny Dorham or Donald Byrd?" kinds of posts we get here, if you ask me!

(Haha... tired AND cranky!) G'night!

[EddieLewis]

First of all, I want to stress once again the importance of listening. And this is more than just transcribing. If you want to sound modern, then you need to create an atmosphere of that sound and live in it.

Then I'd like to mention that this topic is sort of mentioned in the book, Effortless Mastery. Yes, practicing certain things is going to make a difference. Listening to certain things is going to make a difference. But none of it will matter if you have to consciously TRY to play more modern while you're improvising. It's not something you get to TRY. It's something that either comes out of your horn, or it doesn't. So when you actually get into a performance context, don't try to play modern. JUST PLAY.

I would also like to mention that part of what you're talking about, with the pentatonics, is probably because you are most likely sticking to one pentatonic at a time. This, as you have pointed out already, can sound pretty cheesy. Modern players do use pentatonics, but not as scales. They use them as motifs which they then play in sequence, as chromatic patterns. They'll play something in C pentatonic, then Bb, then Ab, the F#, etc......

I personally don't use very much of that anymore. I do use pentatonic stuff, but I do it more as a polytonal thing now-a-days......something to complicated to explain here. But I don't do the typical PT licks anymore. But the thing is, everyone has to start somewhere. I say I don't do them anymore but I couldn't have gotten where I am now if I hadn't done them in the first place.

Try this lick.......it's a very common PT kind of lick.....

A F G C A F | G Eb F Bb G Eb | F Db Eb F Ab F Db | etc.....

This lick represents the F PT, Eb PT, Db PT and continues down in whole steps. VERY, VERY common lick and it's easy to play fast. AND it works in half of the keys.

There are, of course, a lot of great books out there. I began working out of a book called "Pentatonic Scales for Jazz Improvisation" back in 1980. It's still on the market and does an excellent job of showing you what to practice and how to apply all of this stuff to the tunes.

Before I end this post, I would also like to say that your performance context also has a HUGE influence on how modern you can sound. If you are playing tunes like Back Home in Indiana with a dixie land band, none of this stuff will work. If you are playing in a traditional, Glenn Miller styled dance band, none of this stuff will work. I'll even go as far as to say that a lot of standard tunes do NOT easily lend themselves to this kind of playing. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that it's a lot harder to play "modern" over the changes for 'Swonderful than it is to play modern over a modal tune like So What.

I spent about three years really studying players who could pull off a more modern improvisation over standards. In my opinion, the master of this was Woody Shaw. He had that unique ability to play modern while staying true to the tunes. Very few players have ever been able to pull that off. A lot of typically modern players revert to a less modern style when they play standards......while others totally demolish the tunes with the way they play.

My personal goal as a jazz player is to be able to be just as "modern" as woody shaw but to stay true to the tunes the way he did.

Another up and coming player who has this ability is Nicholas Payton.

[big al]

I think the modern sound you're talking about is when people play 'out'...... that is to say, outside of the scale. Sax players and piano players tend to do this more than trumpet players, to my ears at least.

You can do this by just playing a semitone up for a couple of bars, however the possibilities with this are infinite and the trick is to make it sound musical and exciting and to resolve it in your own sweet way!

[Shaker]

I play a semitone off most of the time... and it's not for creative reasons.

[jazz_trpt]

Take a look at Pat Harbison's post from a few months ago:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=19473&forum=3

The topic was "things to play over a V7alt chord", but these techniques could be used over vanilla V7 chords without too much risk if the piano player comping with you isn't creating alot of unaltered upper structures.

The trick isn't playing outside. The trick is getting back inside. If you're not proficient at playing inside, or have trouble weaving back and forth, you run the risk of losing the listener. So you have to practice going back and forth with fluidity.

It helps to work stuff out on the piano. And start listening to horn players on other instruments, like saxophone.
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Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[Alpha-J]

One thing doesn't work for another. Find your own sound. But, whole tone scales are used alot. I find they are actually really good at getting out of sticky chord changes! They work over almost anything, depending on how 'modern' you want to sound.
-J
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A talented trumpeter who toots his own horn winds up playing to an empty theatre. A talented trumpeter who lets others recognize his talent winds up a legend.
Trumpet: Custom Inderbinen Alpha 100/110
Piece: Bach 10 3/4 CW (soon to be Heim #1)

[tptguy]

Here's my suggestion for "hearing modern" and it only involves some careful listening of 3 essential CDs. First, run out immediately and get "Double Take" with Freddie Hubbard and Woody Shaw, Blue Note, 1985. This CD lets you listen to Freddie, a hard bop master, and Woody, a modern master, play head-to-head over the same changes with the same great rhythm section. Go to the "Desert Moonlight" track. The liner notes tell you which channel each trumpeter is on, but don't read them and don't cheat! Listen to the track over and over until you can, by ear, figure out which trumpeter is which. Listen to how differently each master selects his notes. When you are confident you know which is which then check the liner notes. Then, listen to why I say Kenny Garrett is playing sax in the modern vein while Mulgrew Miller is much more from from Freddie's school. You can disagree, but make your judgment based on your ears, not a book or lecture.

From there, listen carefully to all the other tracks with the same analysis of note choice in mind. This album is also a fantastic tool for arrangers trying to write in a more modern style. Listen particularly to the major-hip lines of bass player Cecil McBee. His work on the "Just a Ballad for Woody" is worth the price of the CD alone. And, check out the great trumpet harmonies on the heads throughout.

Then, buy 2 more CDs: "Eric Dolpy at the Five Spot", Prestige '61 and Eric Dolphy "Out to Lunch", Blue Note '64. These are two essential albums from a total master of modern. See if you agree with my assessment, as great as he is, that Freddie is out of context and Booker Little is in the modern-hip pocket to the max. After carefully studying the trumpeters on these 3 CDs your ears should be plenty ready to start establishing your own style.

Best regards, Kyle

[cperret]

I just gotta put this thread back up to the top...

Kyle, what excellent suggestions! I'm going to follow your advice (as soon as can get out and buy 'Live at the Five Spot'.) Am I partial because the Freddie Hubbard/Woody Shaw sessions happen to be among my all-time favorite recordings? ...Maybe.
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Cameron Perret

Horns: Bach 37GH, Marvin Stamm French Besson 92BA, Yamaha 6310Z Flugel

[mateoshaw]

I definitely need to get in some further listening on those recordings. Particularly the Woddy/Freddie one. I met and played with Mulgrew Miller earlier this year... And for those of you who don't know, check this guy out. I think he only has a few albums as a leader, but he's been on loads of recordings as a sideman (I think that's his "gig" so to speak).
The reason I bring this up is because he sounds very modern in my opinion, although this is almost twenty years after that recording. He's played with so many greats as a sideman, I asked him who he felt influenced him the most and he said Woody Shaw, particularly harmonically. He even mentioned how most current day trumpeters still haven't dealt and expanded on what Woody did for the trumpet.

If you're interested in "Outside" playing, you might want to check out Bunky Green's book on outside/inside playing (on Aebersold books). He goes through a lot of the popular "sounds" and alterations used by players and it's pretty user friendly. Just so you know where he's coming from, Bunky doesn't take non-saxophone students unless they have all their modes and change playing together. So I think that knowledge will definitely help you get moving quicker.

Now I'm going to dig up some CD's for listening.

Peace

Matt

[jazz_trpt]

For some reason, those Freddie/Woody albums never really did anything for me. I think Woody gets sucked into trying to out-Freddie Freddie.

That's not to say it's not a great tool for discerning different styles/approaches -- it is!
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Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[cookiemonster]

If you want to play modern, you should play with as small of a sound as you can and play mad woody shaw patterns. Many a College professor makes a living that way. Oh yeah, and vibe younger guys, and get fat, that is a sure fire way to be "modern."

[cookiemonster]

Oh yeah, I forgot, and swing like you are the whitest dude alive. And then if someone calls you on it, aske them if they can play lead. IF they say no, then you look at them like they're just young and will understand why you don't swing at all when they get into the "real world" where swinging isn't necessary.........................kudos

[PH]

Cookie,

Chill out. Maybe you don't like modern music, but let the rest of us, who do, pursue our muse.

[Jason Palmer]

I was wondering, when some of you guys in here mention playing modern, what criteria do you all look for. I'm new to this forum, so I've been reading some of your posts in here. One thing that separates Woody from alot of the guys in here that are mentioned is the fact that his playing was never devoid of the blues. That's something that he must have got hip to from Trane. He really dealt with the tradition, so if you check out his playing in a chronological fashion, you may realize that there was a process to his development. He really checked out the style of the pioneers that came before him. That in turn, gave him a huge bag to dip into. I believe that alot of cats tend to think of being modern in terms of harmonics, intervals, etc. That's cool, but in terms of rhythm, Pops was, and still is one of the most modern trumpeters rhythmically. I would also throw in Kenny Dorham. Some of the stuff that KD played, (especially on Showboat, Coltranetime), is as modern as they come.

[cookiemonster]

Palmer,
You are right on the money with your question. So often "Modern" is looked at as only a harmonic language, which may be why we are still thinking of Woody as modern almost 25 years after Rosewood and other albums. I think that as far as modern Rhythmic players, Kenny Wheeler may have one of the more modern approaches. He plays time in a much different way than many others do. Also, someone like Keith Jarrett is extremely modern while playing the most common things harmonically on ii-v's one could imagine. I think "modern" is about Rhythm, since Trane took harmony where he did. The next big player is going to be someone who takes Rhythm and melody and expands on it, not simply harmony. Bach took harmony pretty far too, Is he modern then?

[improver]

i think the guys that are blazing the way are getting into there practice rooms and comming up with small phrases and then lines of music above the harmony or the notes that are sounding the the key tones on the altered dominant. Learning what these guys play and then unfolding it in the practice rooms is the best thing. Every tuesday i sit in at an exclusive jazz club in Phoenix with 4 of the greatest most experienced musicians ive ever heard. awesome inside guys. great friends but none of them like my playing i can tell. its the most awesome compliment because althouh i can play like them ill never do it as good as they do.they were the cats who did it. So im doing my thing.they all think im a creative cat. So when im playing song for my father for the millionth time im really using that to try different things. thats why i love geg Osby

[jazz_trpt]

John McNeil is pretty interesting from both a rhythmic and harmonic standpoint. Again, someone who has digested all the great players...

Regarding Woody, it's important to remember that alot of his concept came from musicians who weren't trumpet players -- Eric Dolphy, Larry Young...he brought a saxophonist's mindset to playing trumpet. KD was also mentioned -- he started as a tenor player.

I think it makes a big difference to get piano chops together so you can see and hear what's going on as you experiment.

I think one also needs to practice some awkward material that has practical melodic content if one is going to get away from playing trumpet cliche's. Get out of the comfort zone, place oneself in a perilous place and challenge oneself to negotiate with inventiveness (while still 'selling it').
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Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[cookiemonster]

Ever Check out GNU High by Kenny Wheeler. If you want to play modern, transcribe Kenny or Keith Jarret playing on Heyoke. Try listening to Keith Play on that track without pooping your pants too. I know wear depends because of that song.