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sean007r · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:51 am Post subject:

I started "playing" with pedal tones about a month ago and have yet to see any improvments of my range.

Therefore am I do something ELSE wrong?
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_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:53 am Post subject:

That's the purpose of pedal tones -- to learn a relaxed feeling, and translate it to playing in all registers. If you do just pedal tones, without working the rest of range, you may end up with chops so relaxed they forget how to roll in, tighten up, or whatever you do to get the upper register. So, it's always a good idea to follow the pedal tones with upper register work so your chops learn the full range of motion required.

And, yes, most people (me too!) tense up too much for the upper register, leading to a pinched, tight, sound. You want just enough lip tension so that the air makes 'em buzz at the right pitch, staying as relaxed as possible. Too much tension, and you have to blow harder and won't get as full a vibration (amplitude of lip movement, whatever) and thus weaker sound. More (lip) flapping, better and fuller sound, bigger volume, etc.

All in my opinion, YMMV, usual platitudes to the beasts of flame...

- Don

Jeff, Charly, your cue!
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Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

I believe you softened up the center of your chops allowing them to vibrate a little more easily.

I personally believe there are easier ways to achieve that soft center you found without losing the focus of the lip aperture through pedal playing.

This can be learned without missing 1 gig or having 1 bad night. It is NOT an embouchure change. It is using your old embouchure.

It involves lots of Clarke AS WRITTEN.
pp-ppp. It helps to have a teacher show you where your unneeded tension is. And the sound frees up in a couple of hours.

Pedal tones are also a very good way for the uninitiated to go astray.

...meaning that it is very easy for people to play pedals wrongly in an effort to attain high register control via soft center....

The muscles that you play high with are not the same as you play pedals with....

Pedals use a great [big] degree of movement....high playing requires control over fine movements.....

Pedals don't get projected outwards like high notes....they are more of a ''warm air projection'' as opposed to a ''hissing cold air projection''...

Pulling the stomach in to attain inner compression for high register is also converse [opposite] to playing pedals.

To attain the soft center....soft playing is more effective and less likely to go wrong.
Ask Mr.Faddis!!

This is what I have found and works for me....MAYBE it'll help you....

Of course it's fun to look around and experiment with any new [to you] thing.
However, try a new [concept] but if it does'nt work for you in a time span that meets YOUR requirements...try something else.

Find what works for you!!

Good luck!!

Yours Roddy o-iii<O
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:07 am Post subject:

One exercise my teacher has me do now and then is to work on soft (not pedal) tones. (He does not generally use pedal tones, though he can do them.) We start at a comfortable volume and an easy note, say G in the staff, and try to dwindle down to nothing while maintaining good sound. It's harder than it sounds (no pun intended

)! The trick is to keep good tone while getting very, very soft. Hold on to the note as long as you can, getting softer and softer before it goes to just air. We'll do this on each note, descending in steps to the low G or F#. By starting with moderate volume and then fading away (we take it down quickly to p or pp, then try to fade into silence slowly and with control) any issues with trying to start at ppp... (which can also lead to strange embouchure contortions) are mitigated.

HTH - Don

p.s. Who was it who advocates "whisper tones" in practice? Sounds like the same idea...
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[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-04-30 12:10 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 10:45 am Post subject:

Hi Roddy,

****
Pedals don't get projected outwards like high notes....they are more of a ''warm air projection'' as opposed to a ''hissing cold air projection''... ****

Can you bring me up to speed on what warm air and cold air is (in trumpet playing)? Isn't the air all the same temp when it enters the horn?

Also, I've seen Leon use the term "hissing" to play high notes, but again, I don't have a clue what he is talking about. Can you also clarify what the heck he means by that? Is there a particular register where the hissing technique kicks in?

Charly

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Hi Charly!

you said>>>

>>>[tell me] what warm air and cold air is<<<

...just a visualisation technique...

..also hissing [more visualisation] speeding up the air ["shoot like a laser"- Brisbois] begins at different places [registers] for different people..

Roddy o-iii<O
This is my opinion and has helped me...now let's have others opinions on the interesting main question...then the originator can experiment and find what helps him!
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 12:11 pm Post subject:

Here's wot I think (scary, huh?!?):

Warm air = thick, fat, slow airstream, like "fogging a mirror" (my teacher's experssion).

Cold air = fast, tight (small) airstream, like you'd blow to cool down, or at an "ow-ee" after putting the iodine on (stings! hurts! blow hard and fast!)

Hissing = like a snake or small animal, fast airstream with tongue forward, lips pursed.

HTH! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:39 pm Post subject:

capitalistnihilist,

Lots of people have noticed the relationship between playing pedals and playing high notes, which is why they are an essential ingredient in a lot of methods. I think the analysis differs among players and teachers as to why this happens. I happen to believe that playing pedals teaches the lips how to play without pressure and other forms of manipulation. The less manipulation that you employ to play will make your embouchure more efficient and therefore the notes (high and low) will be easier to play and will sound better.

It doesn't matter what the lips are actually doing to cause this to happen, they're doing it. This is what makes pedal exercises such a powerful teaching tool. There's nothing to think about or figure out. They let nature be the teacher.

It is important to play stuff right after practicing pedals so the lips can transfer what they've learned from playing pedals into the normal and high register. It's a process, but eventually more and more learning gets transferred and pretty soon you're playing fairly easily throughout the range of the horn. I wouldn't practice pedals and then put the horn down for any length of time. Give them a chance to work by practicing scales, chords and etudes right after.

CR

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-02 15:09 ]

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

I actually never play pedals now.

I have'nt for about 4 years.

I can achieve the same result of soft center by soft playing.

Lots of people get their end result by playing pedals.

You need to try everything.

Find what works best for you.

No one else has your oral cavity.

Roddy o-iii<O
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

Keith Wood · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:44 pm Post subject:

My teacher never played pedals in his life, but he did not downplay them if they worked for others. He said the key to playing pedals is to use the same embouchure that you normally use, emphasizing that you should "set high", like you're going to play 4th space E or G above the staff. I worked on them for years incorrectly, then Jake got me turned around. Now they are great--and fun stuff if you teach kids! I like the thought of the tall building needing a large, deep foundation. All the best.
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Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

My teacher never played pedals in his life, but he did not downplay them if they worked for others.
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DAMN RIGHT!!
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

groovinhigher · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 8:54 am Post subject:

Like some others here, I have known cats who swore by them, and some who never advocated or did them, and each of these guys had monster chops, so go figure. Whatever works for you is my motto. For me personally, I did them religiously for years, and at the time felt they helped. Since doing Frank Minears method I have stopped doing pedals, and you know what, the world did not end! LOL... as a matter of fact I feel stronger now than ever, whether that has more to do with the other good things in that system, just getting older and playing more lead, or the pedals themselves, I suppose is open to debate, but like Ron King used to say, "different strokes for different folks". An interesting factoid, while Claude Gordon swore by them, I have been told Harold Mitchell thought they were totally unnecessary. Whatever works for you is probably the best advice.

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[ This Message was edited by: groovinhigher on 2002-11-23 11:55 ]

donovan · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:19 pm Post subject:

There are those that feel that the embouchure that is used to play pedals (especially pedal C) is the embouchure you should use throughout the rest of the horn. I learned this approach from Jim Manley, and I must say it is worth looking into. I can tell you this, it is the exact opposite of what _I_ think if when I think of the "closed aperture" system, but that is probably just my paradigm.
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tcutrpt · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject:

I've been working on the Stamp studies that involve pedal tones for a couple of months now. I've found a couple things to help with producing the tone. It helps me to focus on bringing the corners in towards the mouthpiece and not rolling out the bottom lip. I feel it has really helped me with my upper register. By bringing the corners in on pedal tones, they are being strengthened and keeping them in as you ascend keeps everything where it needs to be. I find that my upper register is opening up quite a bit and the feel I get now is very similar to that of the pedals. I hope this helps.

Matt

julia · Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:22 pm Post subject:

sorry to slow down the conversation but i have seen numerous posts and forums about PEDAL TONES...just what are they?! cheers

Tass · Regular Member Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 11

i too am wondering about pedal tones, what are they?

_bugleboy · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:41 am Post subject:

Have you had a chance to browse through this thread?

http://trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=708&forum=2

MF Fan · Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:32 am Post subject:

The direct answer to the question in the preceding post: Pedal Tones are the notes below the normal range of the trumpet, i.e. F# below the staff. F is therefore the first pedal. They go down as far as you can play them.

Regarding the purpose or benefits, much of the cause and effect related to trumpet playing is personal, based on each player's perception of what they're doing to achieve the results they experience. It has been MY experience that the benefit of playing pedals is not to "soften" the lips for the sake of easier upper register vibrations. They may have this effect, but to me that hasn't been a factor I've noticed. Also, I don't think pedals and playing softly (e.g. the Cat Anderson Method) can be done interchangably for the same effect on the embouchure tissue. Soft playing conditions the embouchure to form a very small apeture, which is what you need for high notes. Pedals on the other hand create a very large apeture, which is why so many believe they're counterproductive relative to high-range development. I believe the benefit of pedals comes from conditioning yourself to play with a forward embouchure, relaxed upper body, tongue arch, etc, which are all necessary for success in the upper register. You get to practice creating this physiological set-up in the low stress environment of the lower register.

Back in my high school days I took on Claude Gordon's "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice," which was my first exposure to pedals. Unfortunately, I didn't have the benefit of teacher to guide me, and ended up doing many things "the wrong way," which negated much of the benefit that Gordon's work can provide. I thought that pedals was supposed to have a mystical ability to give you high notes. Unfortunately I wasn't playing them correctly, wasn't breathing correctly, etc. so didn't make much progress. 20 years later, I'm now covering the same ground, but with the advantage of having learned the correct way to do it, and am now making progress! My point to all this is: How you practice is equally (more?!) important than what you practice. The benefits of pedals are only available when done correctly. IMO it's not due to the massaging effect they provide, it's how they condition you to relax, set your embouchure, tongue, etc. At least in my universe!

[ This Message was edited by: MF Fan on 2003-01-10 13:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: MF Fan on 2003-01-10 13:53 ]