Can You Learn to Improvise?

trjeam · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject:

I'm sitting here at night listening to Miles and Trane and ask myself this question; can you learn to improvise?

I personally don't ever recall anyone ever teaching me how to improvise. I always just sort of did it and through out the years I have been developing into being able to express my self better.

but no one ever gave me a book telling me here this is how you do this or I don't ever recall ever sitting down trying to figure out how to improvise..

i mean you really can't teach heart and soul. I listen to miles and trane and they play with heart, i just don't see how you can teach that. I personally think that it can't be taught, it's just something that you have to have within you.

And I know that there are allot of cats out there with books on how to improv and stuff like that..

what do you guys think? can you learn to improv?
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_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject:

"I always just sort of did it and through out the years I have been developing into being able to express my self better."

I think the answer is thus "yes".

There are, of course, many ways to learn... - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

trjeam · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject:

_Don Herman · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:50 pm Post subject:

Yo Jorge,

I'll put in my two cents then let it go...

"you can't developed what you can't do."

??? We are continually learning so we can do what we couldn't do before. I don't get it...

"in my opinion you can listen to all the records, read all the books and know all the scales and licks and still not be able to do it."

Well, I sort of get this... You have to try, and have the desire to do it. I think we all have at least some creativity. I'm sure there's a full spectrum from those who really can't to those who do it immediately without thought, but I really believe most who desire to learn to improv can learn to do it. Some may have to work a lot harder... Sometimes, a teacher can make the connection, or a friend...

"how do you teach creativity and self expression/heart and soul? that's something that has to be part of a persons nature."

Ah, but there are art classes, and music classes, and plenty of places to get real world experience. We all have self expression, and though I can certainly find evidence that some are more creative than others, I'm not willing to sell anybody short just yet.

All from me, I think. You can have the last word. Others will chime in, and I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before. Probably without changing anybody's fundamental opinion.

Interesting topic -- I'm curious to read what others post! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:57 pm Post subject:

I once heard someone say that you can't play any wrong notes when improvising... but you can make bad choices.... so I guess technically the answer is yes... anyone can learn to improvise.. yet some people will probably tend to make better note choices than others....thus creating a more pleasing sound to the ear.

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[ This Message was edited by: fuzzyjon79 on 2004-07-24 21:58 ]

EddieLewis · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:58 pm Post subject:

Teaching "heart and soul"? No, I don't think so. Who ever said that you had to???

I taught jazz improvisation at Houston's High School for the Performing and Visual Arts for a period of seven years. Did I teach them "heart and soul"? No!!! I taught them the basics of what they needed to get started.

And that is really all we can EVER do as educators. We can't make great musicians out of our students. We can only point them in the right direction. When you compare everything that they must do on their own to what we have time to show them, our influence ends up being extremely minor in that context. That is precisely why I never take any credit for the success some of my students have had since they left my class. I have exstudents who are doing HUGE things in the jazz world today, but they got there on their own merits, not mine. The role I played is practically insignificant.

So, yes, I do think we can teach improvisation, but we cannot teach heart and soul. They are not one and the same.

camelbrass · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:06 pm Post subject:

I'm not the world's greatest improviser but it's something I constantly work on and I reckon it's one of the most enjoyable things you can use a musical instrument for.

I think you need to work on 2 things:

1. Listening (styles, sounds)
2. The tools (scales, chords,licks, stylistic signatures)

Get so familiar with these things that you can go to the next step and forget them, or more correctly choose to ignore from a position of knowledge.

Just my take on it.

Regards,

Trevor

PS The creativity part, the 'heart and soul' is still up to the individual though.

[ This Message was edited by: camelbrass on 2004-07-24 22:13 ]

trjeam · Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:07 pm Post subject:

pmkt16 · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 263

I know there are improv teachers out there. I know for a fact that Mr Stewart who is on these boards teaches improv, I being a former student who unfortunately at the time didn't take my horn very seriously didn't get the full experience out of it and he no longer teaches at my school. Bummer.

justpushplay · Regular Member Joined: 12 May 2004 Posts: 31

I think its similar as to become a great writer, a real storyteller, a genius with poems. Sure you have to learn the language, words + grammar, how to develop a story and so on. But the feeling for the sound of the language, how to express different feelings, how to catch and hold attention - although it can be taught to a certain extent, I think everyone has to grow into this on his own. The basic learning has to be done, style and taste are very personal.

But I think, one can be trained to develop his own style of expression. Among other things through studying and listening to the greats.

jm2c
jpp

trjeam · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:07 am Post subject:

If there is such a thing as "learning to improvise" it would definitely not be in a classroom setting. If I was to say that I "learned" how to improv from anywhere, I would have to credit all the times in jam sessions or jazz bands when I was put on the spot to improvise in front of the entire band or audience without knowing exactly what I was doing, but even during that first time that I was put on the spot to improv. it all came out natural and smooth

And I guess you could say that my real "teachers" that helped me developed were all the different cats I met along the way that gave me different advice like "just go with the flow".

But my point is that even that first time that I was asked to improv to "oye como va"; when I was in 9Th grade in front of a big band, and I was just put on the spot, everything just came out natural, I was improvising with no one telling me how to do it, I was just told "go do it". The notes were on and everything.

At that time I had about 4 years of church playing which helped developed my ear and I only knew 8 major scales, but I don't think that played a very huge roll in what I was doing because I know orchestral people that have perfect pitch and they know all the modes and scales and they have all the technique in the world and they still can't improvise ( and some of them even like and listen to jazz).
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musiclifeline · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:20 am Post subject:

Jorge,
It sounds like you're pretty impressed with your own improvising capabilities... Don't forget that there's always more to learn so you can express yourself better. Things can sound great to you when you're playing, but many listeners, especially educated ones, can spot BS a mile away. I've been in the position of playing with a tenor player who sounded very natural, but there was something strange about his playing, and I could never figure out where his solos were going. I asked him about it, and he said he really didn't know how to play over changes. That's when it hit me that he wasn't resolving 90% of his lines harmonically. While he had a great rhythmic feel, his improvising still didn't make sense. He, of course, thought he was doing just fine as long as he was playing in the right key and using the right scales, right notes, etc....

trjeam · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:43 am Post subject:

yeah at that time (in the 9th grade) I was impressed with my self in finding out that I could improvise when I didn't even think I could.

Right now in present time, no I'm not impressed with my self.. why would i be impressed with my self? I'm still developing and I'm no where near as good as cats like Pat, Arturo, or Wynton.

And about the tenor sax player, well at least he could already improvise. What you did was just help him become better, witch in my opinion is just part of the developing process. you didn't teach him how to sound natural.

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[ This Message was edited by: trjeam on 2004-07-25 12:49 ]

cperret · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:52 am Post subject:

Ah... this old argument. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this one, especially back in college. But I have to say, it gets old pretty fast.

Jorge, your heroes, Miles and Trane, didn't pop out of their mothers' womb playing beautiful solos. In fact, you two great examples of musicians whose playing changed dramatically from the beginning of their recording career to the end. Why? Because they were constantly learning to better channel their personal message, or 'soul', through their music.

Now, I agree with one thing you said: You can't teach heart and soul. True! Fortunately, I've yet to ever meet someone who doesn't have both. (Robots like that are still a ways off.) We all have soul! And the wonderful thing is, we're all different, and have different things to say. If that wasn't the case, music would be pretty boring. I often compare Jazz to learning a second language. You might have something really important to say, but unless you know the rules of the language, (in our case, scales, harmony, etc,) you probably won't be able to get your point across properly.

Finally, musiclifeline said:
>>Things can sound great to you when you're playing, but many listeners, especially educated ones, can spot BS a mile away.<<

Hey, I'm with you 100% with you on this one. You know, one of my favorite trumpet players (I won't name whom,) once said to me, "There are all these kids whining and saying, 'I don't want to learn licks, I just want to play what's in my head!' What makes them think that what's in their head is worth @#&#? They have to put stuff in there first."
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EddieLewis · Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:49 pm Post subject:

pfrank · Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:08 am Post subject:

[/quote]
I like to think of jazz improv classes as "on your horn" version of composition classes. What you learn in composition is the same stuff you learn in improvisation. The obvious difference being that improvisation is on your horn, not on the paper. So to me, to say that you can't teach improvisation is like saying you can't teach composition. That's just simply not true. [/quote]
YES! That's IT! Inprovisation IS just fast composition.
calming down a bit...

LIFE teaches "heart and soul". Some people are born creative and mature, but most people need to get bashed up a bit in life to find the proper 'receptive to creativity' stance. They still have to know all the scales without thinking.
It's also good to have some inner conflict so you NEED to express yourself. It's EXTRA emotion that's used in creativity: if you are totally content, why would you need to make artistic statements over and over again?

There is a book titled "Letters to a Young Poet" that is a corespondence between an aspiring poet and Rainer Maria Rilke, the great German poet. The young man wants to know "am I a poet"? Rilke's answer is: if you NEED to be a poet, if you have NO CHOICE other than being a poet, you are a poet. The personal cost of being an artist is such that only someone who has no choice would go through what it takes.

Some people are SO calcified in their inner selfs that creativity won't ever happen in this lifetime. They CAN be opened eventually through religious experience (although it's a double edges sword and can lead to further calcification if they think they have 'all the answers'...)(which fills the ego), or start the process if they dare step off the path of pre-designed societial roles. (High school to college to marriage and family)(although to a creative person these are not impediments, just joyful responsibilities) A family life Can be a heart opening experience via both joy and great pain.
You might say, people can't change or teach other people directly, but they can be an example. Only "God" (whatever that word means to you) through experiences in life, changes hearts.

Boy meets Horn · Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:44 am Post subject:

I can only speak for myself on this thread. Before I started improvising I had always been listening to jazz. I had the sound in my head before i evern touched the horn. So when people would give me the scale I could use to solo off of, I could almost always find a way to make it sound good. In my opinion, most of the students out there that want to learn how to improv, dont really have the sound in their head, most of them are only casual listeners.

I once heard this story from a friend of mine a few years ago about a kid named Brandon Lee(Brandon Lee goes to Juliard now). Well, my friend told me that Brandon was almost always listening to jazz when there was a break. If you have ever heard this kid play, you know how great of a soloist he is and i know a lot of that comes from listening.

I think you can teach students licks, feel, theory, and a different way of thinking, but in the end all you get is someone regurgitating licks unless that person truly enjoys listening to the music and doesnt just passively listen. The timing of miles davis, the inventiveness of coltrane cant be taught, however, i feel that they can be learned and possibly improved upon if the student is dedicated enough to mastering the art of jazz.
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