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barrone Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 41
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi:
I was recently involved in a conversation that posed an interesting question whose answer remains somewhat elusive:
Is there a direct relationship between bore size (i.e. ML vs large...+/- .470) and range development?
Most local respondants felt that aside from the extra volume required for a large bore, their range was the same regardless but, if that is indeed true, would the large bore impede range development for one who may have yet established his or her desired limit???? |
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Redhothorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 1173
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:07 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, a majority of high note artist have (or are) gravitating toward a smaller bore size. EX: Jon Faddis, Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Alan Wise etc. I cannot think of many high note artist who play on a Large-Bore ... not sure about Sandoval. |
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_Don Herman 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3344 Location: Monument, CO, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:07 am Post subject: |
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My range improved after getting a large bore horn.
I don't think it had much to do with the horn, though it is much easier (for me) to play high on my Wt than my old Bach.
I think there are many variables to range, and bore size is but one -- and a minor one, imho.
FWIWFM, YMMV - Don _________________ Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley |
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pfrank Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002 Posts: 3523 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:13 am Post subject: |
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No, eventually you'd get used to the large bore. It might require a mouthpiece that offered a bit more resistance. It does for me when I switch from my 464 bore to a 460 bore or 425 small bore trumpet...that is, I need a more open mp on the med. lg. bore and a Very open mp on the small bore. Range is the same once you know how to play a different bore horn. (although I've poped of some pretty high, dog hearing range notes on the 425 bore, but not in a musical context...) |
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barrone Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 41
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Thank you all for your replies. After averaging the replies,I guess the general consensus is that bore diameter should have no real influence on range once one has become acclimated to the volume of air required by the given bore diameter. |
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Keyser13 Regular Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2003 Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sandoval plays on a .463 bore horn, which would be a Large bore horn. Maynard plays on a .470 i believe. |
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FlugelFlyer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2002 Posts: 1450 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Maynard's horns have traditionally been built at .468 after his large bore committee. That's still a huge horn though if you ask me. _________________ Trumpet: Bach 180LR, 72 bell
Mouthpiece: Warburton 3XD/KT |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2004-08-13 08:07, redhothorn wrote:
In my experience, a majority of high note artist have (or are) gravitating toward a smaller bore size. EX: Jon Faddis, Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Alan Wise etc. I cannot think of many high note artist who play on a Large-Bore ... not sure about Sandoval.
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Arturo Sandoval plays a large bore trumpet and has a range to about triple C.
Claude Gordon played a large bore trumpet and had a range to above triple C.
Stan Mark plays a large bore trumpet and has a range to above Double C.
I play a large bore trumpet and have a range to above Double C.
Mike Paulson plays a large bore trumpet and has a range to above Double C.
Tony Horowitz plays a large bore trumpet and has a range to above Double C.
Paul Cacia plays a large bore trumpet and has a range to above Double C.
Maynard Ferguson plays a large bore trumpet and has a range to above Double C.
I could go on and on with the list.
Despite many opinions to the contrary, a large bore trumpet does not hinder range. In fact, most authorities agree that a good open horn allows for free, faster airflow which helps the upper register. Tighter small bore horns place the resistance on the WRONG side - in front of the lips. The proper place for the resistance to speed up the air is just BEHIND the lips. This good kind of resistance is created by properly arching one's tongue up and FORWARD in the mouth as one ascends into the upper register.
For a full explanation of this, obtain Claude Gordon's book "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing" published by Carl Fischer and available at:
http://www.claudegordonmusic.com
Sincerely,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lowell Veteran Member
Joined: 23 May 2002 Posts: 328 Location: Escondido, CA
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:44 am Post subject: |
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I agree with John, it is so much easier to play in the altissimo register when there is no resistance from the equipment to stop you.
I sold all of my Large bore horns, as a matter of fact one went to John Mohan.
I have played Bachs for some time now, but my favorite is my old Calicchio #2,
Because of the .468" bell it sounds like a large bore horn, but does not play like it.
I do not like the feel of the horns where the bell is a smaller bore than the body of the horn.
HOWEVER, it is all balanced by the correct combination of the mouthpiece with the horn.
Not only study who plays what bore horns, but also learn what kind of "Blow" mouthpieces they play too.
I have found that Large blow horns, go best with large blow mouthieces, and small blow horns go best with small blow mouthpieces. Check it out yourselve, I have dont it both ways LARGE horn, Large blow mouthpiece, and Large Blow horn and small blow mouthpiece, and the LARGE with LARGE works for me the best.
What is your experiance???
Lowell Stevenson
http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/interview/fokus/ |
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Lowell Veteran Member
Joined: 23 May 2002 Posts: 328 Location: Escondido, CA
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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OK high note fans have a look at a letter from Herbert L. Clarke to Fred Elias in 1940.
"in a letter to Fred Elias he say this:
(Clarke to Elias dating 10/11/1940)
Dear Fred:
Up to your old tricks again with your betting on high tones. I wrote you last Monday from my country home in in Garden Grove, posted it in Santa Ana,
where we had dinner, and found yours of the 4th when I returned Tuesday at Long Beach.
So you still want to increase your range of the cornet: Especially at your age. Well, there is a trick I used to practice when travelling with Sousa, when my
lips did not seem to respond after being up all night with local town bands, and playing my usual solos the next day. You know the condition, eh? Well, by
practicing this "stunt" carefully, knowing just how to get each interval, correctly from high "C" up, I have often reached two octaves above "G" in the top
space of the scale...Sometimes higher.
This takes no strength, power nor strain. It is so simple that one is astounded at the results. Of course one must have a good embouchure and control of
thde lip muscles. It is difficult to explain, but easy to demonstrate, and is scientific.
When you form your lips to porduce the above "G," just touch your tongue, very slightly, to your bottom lip, the tip, which throws the tip of the lower lip
up towards the tip of upper lip, using much power. The tone is produced to the inside of upper mouthpiece at an angle of 45 degrees, instead of blowing
straight into the throat of the mouthpiece as one does in playing the cornet.
Try it, after you have gotten the idea. I can do it without any embouchure, any time. But it must be practiced to get results."
I reprint it here as it was sent to me, spelling errors and all.
I hope that helps those that want to play high and don't know HOW.
Lowell Stevenson
http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/interview/fokus/ |
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Zaphod Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 355 Location: Aachen, Germany
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like SuperChops to me... _________________ One cannot expect to attain the highest point of exellence without hard work and perseverance.[...] Try to improve to some extent each day and to experience that satisfying pleasure in having conquered what at first seemed to be an impossibility! - Clarke |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Lowell,
Is this for real?!?!
It sure DOES sound like SuperChops! Claude used to tell me that Clarke told him that sometimes his tongue came into light contact with the vibrating surface of his lower lip and it would tickle his tongue. But he never related any stories from Clarke about using the tongue to push on the lower lip.
A bit skeptical but still wondering,
John Mohan |
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Mr.Hollywood Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:17 am Post subject: |
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What about Maynards .438 bore Constellation? He recorded his greatest stuff on that horn.
Faddis is the greatest living high note player. There is nothing he can't play and he has always played medium bores. So does Dave Trigg, and Roger Ingram. And lets not forget about Bobby Shew.
Oh yeah, I seem to remember a certain high note player by the name of William Alonzo Anderson who also played a medium bore Constellation.
Chris
[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2004-08-19 12:23 ] |
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FlugelFlyer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2002 Posts: 1450 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Question:
What did Mic Gillette use through his Tower of Power years? I know he's a fan of large bore horns, but I heard he had a heart attack a few years back from the accumulating damage playing ML bores did to him, and that's why he switched to larger bore horns. He may not be the greatest all around player ever, but his musicality in the upper register parallels Wayne Bergeron and George Graham. Mic was my favorite player for a long time, and listening to some old TOP records recently reminded me why. _________________ Trumpet: Bach 180LR, 72 bell
Mouthpiece: Warburton 3XD/KT |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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According to Dick Akright, my .485 Holton was based on Mic's custom Martin. It has the Maynard bell instead of the 6" Martin bell. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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AccentOnTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of it is mouthpiece related too, I think.
A lot of high note players who use large bore also usually use shallower pieces with smaller throats to compensate, so bore size becomes more obselete.
My past horn was large bore, my current is medium-large. I definitely like ML better because I don't sacrifice my sound at all, and it helps with range.
I don't notice many people playing a small bore horn, aside from Lew Soloff, and he often uses a (modified) 3C, so maybe the smaller bore horn makes it easier to hit the high notes in combination with whatever modifications were made?
[ This Message was edited by: AccentOnTrumpet on 2004-08-21 17:31 ] |
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AccentOnTrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me what the compromise is to playing a smaller bore horn? Are you compromising sound? |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JasonHarrelson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 869 Location: Denver, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Bore size really has very little to do with range. This is a very common myth that is completely unfounded. Leadpipe and bell tapers determine the feeling of resistance or lack thereof. The bore size is irrelevant to resistance unless the taper begins larger than the actual bore. This doesn't happen as building a trumpet this way would result in serious intonation problems.
Many will argue this, but how many actually re-build trumpets everyday? I can take a large bore trumpet and switch the leadpipe and/or bell to different tapers and the horn will feel like a different bore. Likewise, I can do the same for a small bore instrument and the same is true.
I'm not saying bore has no overall effect on the playability of the instrument...it does alter the spectrum of sound and overtone series amplitude levels, etc. However, it usually has nothing to do with the feel of resistance most find necessary to play in the upper stratosphere!
Jason Harrelson _________________ Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com |
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