Popping Frequency

[Tpt_Guy]

I was inspired by reading the thread "Is there bad Monette's?" (gotta love that grammar) and have become curious about this:

Can any of you Monette players out there tell me what the popping frequencies of your Monette mouthpieces are?

Does the pitch change for each mpc key?

How 'bout going from a lead piece, to a legit piece?
_________________
-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee

[Tpt_Guy]

Is no one interested in doing this?

[trumpetchops]

I will do it

About concert B
The C mouthpiece is a little more sharp.

My tuner will not pick up the "pop"

[Tpt_Guy]

That's what I suspected would happen.

I wonder if his constant pitch center design has anything to do with making sure the popping frequency of the mouthpiece matches the key of horn... I would suspect it does.

Anyone know what his E flat and cornet mouthpieces pop at?
_________________
-Tom Hall-

"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee

[LittleRusty]

My results are not quite the same.

I am popping by hitting the rim of the mouthpiece with the palm of my hand.

It's hard to get my Korg tuner to register when popping, but popping gives

Monette B4L - A
Monette C2 - A
Bach 7C - G#
Bach 3C - A
Giardinelli-New 7C body, 7 rim - G#
Kanstul Burbank P - G# - ~20 cents

Cornet
Conn 2 - A
Bach 7C - A + ~20 cents
Kanstul P - A - ~ 20 cents

The popping pitch difference between the C and Bb Monettes is small.

If I blow the MPC from the receiver end like a flute I get:

Monette B4L - C + ~ 40 cents
Monette C2 - C# + ~40 cents
Bach 7C - Bb
Bach 3C - Bb + ~30 cents
Giardinelli-New 7C body, 7 rim - B + ~20 cents
Kanstul Burbank P - B - ~40 cents

Cornet
Conn 2 - Eb + ~20 cents
Bach 7C - D
Kanstul P - Eb

The popping results don't quite agree with other posts. I don't know why. I did have my daughter a flute student double check my ear.

[Derek Reaban]

Tom,

This is a very interesting experiment. I have shown my Monette mouthpieces from shortest to longest and then for comparison a Bach mouthpiece. The AP4L is for my piccolo and is the shortest of the bunch. I was surprised at how much longer the 1C was than my B11. I remember reading somewhere that the length of the Bach mouthpieces was based on the appropriate length for an A trumpet (historically speaking – i.e. late 1800’s length), but I can’t remember where I read this.

For the popping experiment, I used the palm of my hand and sat at the piano for pitch comparison. My Wife came in and said, “You’re crazy”, and then I showed her you’re little experiment. She was impressed to see the large difference in length between the various mouthpieces. For the “flute” experiment, I did the same thing that LittleRusty did.

Here are my results where the pitches are in concert pitch:

Mouthpiece.......Length..........Pop..........Flute

Monette AP4L........2 ½ inch........Bb..............F#
Monette C11.........3 inch............G#.............D
Monette B11.........3 1/8 inch.......G...............C#
Bach 1C...............3 7/16 inch.....F#.............C


The flute pitches are about an octave and a half above the popping pitches (i.e. 2nd line G to C# above the staff). Hope these data points are helpful to you!
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[Martin]

Whew!

You guys should know what "popping" means in German. I thought this thread was a poll about our love lives...

[trumpetmike]

Martin - if you "pop" your mouthpiece - that is your choice

[Martin]

Please, let´s not get into this.
I fear another debate about the best size, most comfortable diameter and running shoe analogies.
Didn´t your country invent the "Top of the Pops" show?

[trumpetmike]

[DizzyChrizzy01]

I highly recommend the following popping test to determine the quality of your mouthpiece:

Hold your mouthpiece in your hand, your arm straight. Then let it fall on the floor. If it sounds good when hitting the floor, then it is a bad mouthpiece.

Best, if you do it on a stone floor

Chris

[Tpt_Guy]

Derek,

Interesting that you Bach 1C pops at a Concert F#...mine pops at a Concert G and flutes at a C!!

So much for the consistency of Bach mouthpieces!

Edit: When I cover the cup and flute it, it comes out at a C, but when I leave the cup open, it comes out as a B natural.

_________________
__________________________________
Tom Hall

Curry 1BC
Dennis Wick 2B (cornet)
Stork Vacchiano 1
Bach 1C

Bach TR200S (upgrading soon)
Bach C180L239G (Akright customized)
Bach 184GLS Cornet
Benge 8Z Cornet

[ This Message was edited by: Tpt_Guy on 2004-08-26 19:12 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Tpt_Guy on 2004-08-26 21:32 ]

[_dcstep]

Wouldn'[t it be more meaningful to "pop" the mpc while in the horn as opposed to off the horn? Seems to me that the frequency off the horn would be totally irrelevant and I'm no sure that the frequency on the horn has any relevance.

Dave

Oh, when I put my GR in my Selmer and pull the main slide to where I normally play, it "pops" at Bb concert, in tune.

_________________
Selmer-Paris Concept TT w/ GR66Z**/GR66MS
Yamaha 731 Flugel w/ GR66FL
http://www.dcjb.com http://www.pitpops.com

[ This Message was edited by: dcstep on 2004-08-26 19:17 ]

[mcamilleri]

If you pop your horn without the mouthpiece, it is not in tune. If you can play it without the mouthpiece (good luck, I can only get an out of tune E and G) you would find that it plays sharp, and that the open notes are not in tune relative to one another. When the mouthpiece is added, the natural resonant pitch of all the horn open notes is changed, some more than others. The higher notes are dragged down in pitch more than the lower notes. How far they are shifted is ENTIRELY dependent on the mouthpiece.

The mouthpiece has a critical role to play to ensure that all the open notes are where they should be. Variations in the popping frequency (given constant lip intrusion) have predictable effects on intonation. Get it wrong, and the open slots (and all valve combinations) will not be properly in tune. It is easy for a horn to be out by -30 to 30 cents on high C relative to low C, over a typical range of common stock mouthpieces.

If you want to prove if for yourself, go to a shop that has the entire Jet-tone range, and try either the 10, 7, or 1 series. (These all have the same rim and undercut, so lip intrusion should be constant with cup size). Play the same size rim from the S through to the D cups and do blind checks on intonation. These specific JetTone mouthpieces are not properly balanced, and all have different popping frequencies with cup depth, with some so far out it would be challenge for anyone to play them in tune. The current Doc Severinson piece is so far out it is not funny. If you stuff half your face in the cup, it might work - I was nearly a semitone flat on high C. Most of the other JetTone pieces (LM, MF, AH etc) are properly balanced. The LM series have EXACTLY the same popping frequency on the various cup depths - Leon obviously had very high standards when designing these pieces.

Get it right and the horn slots are just where they should be, and you get a constant pitch center behaviour playing soft to loud. Oh, and the horn also feels great to play, has a good tone, responds quickly, plays well soft etc.

Your trumpet does all of this already, Dave, so chances are your mouthpiece is a good match to the horn and you (and you also have a very fine trumpet).

Michael

PS. Don't pop the mouthpiece on the horn, or you might need a trip to your local repair shop.

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-08-26 20:39 ]

[mcamilleri]

BTW, popping the mouthpiece on the horn has no relevence, as it will only tell you if the fundamental is in tune (which depends on the tuning slide) and gives no indication if the higher partials are in tune relative to the fundamental.

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[Tpt_Guy]

Too late,

I already popped my mpc on the horn...but not hard. Just hard enough to get an idea of the pitch. It didn't get stuck.

Out of the horn, my mpc pips at concert G and flutes at a concert B, my horn alone pops at concert B natural, and when I put the mpc in the horn, it pops at concert B flat.

I did some reading, and I think you posted on this, about how when you play louder, the higher harmonics dominate the lower and drag the pitch down if they're not exact multiples...I also found some of Benade's papers online.

Well, if it drags pitchs down that are above the popping frequency, how come a Monette that pops at say, a concert G (a B1-1) will stay in tune when playing above that pitch.

There must be something more to this.



_________________
__________________________________
Tom Hall

Curry 1BC
Dennis Wick 2B (cornet)
Stork Vacchiano 1
Bach 1C

Bach TR200S (upgrading soon)
Bach C180L239G (Akright customized)
Bach 184GLS Cornet
Benge 8Z Cornet

[ This Message was edited by: Tpt_Guy on 2004-08-26 21:32 ]

[mcamilleri]

Hi Tom,

You may be getting confused between several distinctly different things.

Adding a mouthpiece modifies the pitch of the natural resonances of the horn from what they would be without a mouthpiece. How it does this can only really be discussed well by reference to complex acoustics equations which I know nothing about, or by reference to the papers of Benade (some of his graphs on this topic are on the web). The basic idea is that the mouthpiece has the largest effect at around it's resonant popping frequency, and lesser effects above and below that. The higher notes around G on the staff are affected the most, less effect lower, less effect higher. Ideally, the natural resonant frequencies of the horn + mouthpiece + player will be in the sequence 1x, 2x, 3x etc. Note that 'natural resonant frequency' is not precisely the same as an open note on your horn, close, but not quite.

The effect on intonation of playing louder is a different phenomenon. My original post in the other thread covered that in some detail. If the popping frequency is not right, the natural resonant frequency of say, the G on top of the staff is not right, and is not exactly 2x that of the middle G as it should be. If you play the middle G the sound has frequency components at precisely 2x (high G), 3x( high D), 4x (double G) etc the fundamental frequency. How much acoustic power these frequency components have depends on how closely their frequency lines up with the natural resonances of the horn. If they line up exactly, you get maximal power. If they are off, you get less power. Maximal power is highly desirable.

Now here is the real kicker. When playing softly, the fundamental has the most power, and the higher harmonics are weaker. As you play louder, the higher harmonics get more power, until the second gets more powerful than the first, and if played loudly enough the 3rd of 4th etc harmonics will be more powerful than the fundamental. Now, if the second harmonic has the most power, the horn will 'want' to play at the natural resonant frequency of the second harmonic. If it is exactly 2x the fundamental, no problem. If it is off, then the horn will gradually drift in pitch to be closer to that pitch, either sharp or flat. The exact pitch will be a compromise between the fundamental and the 2nd harmonic (and all higher harmonics) that maximises the average power over all of them.

If the popping frequency is correct, the natural resonances of the horn are almost exactly in this 1x, 2x, 3x etc sequence, and the pitch will be constant from ppp-fff. If not, the pitch will wander either sharp or flat as you play louder, and the horn will also be more 'slippery', with less well defined 'slots'.

Anyway, don't get too caught up in the detail behind all this. It is important to know that this effect exists, and what you should do to get it right. You CANNOT expect every mouthpiece to match you and your horn, and what works for one player may not work for another, due to differences in lip intrusion, mp pressure etc. On the basis of popping frequency alone, I would expect less than 1/3 of most mouthpieces to be roughly OK for a given horn and player, and only about 1 in 10 to be a good match. Then, of course, it may not fit your face, so you are down to 1 in 20, or 1 in 30, or less. Keep looking, the perfect piece is out there...

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[B. Scriver]

Check this out on the GR Mouthpieces 101 Section:

http://www.grmouthpieces.com/questions6.htm

Brian Scriver

[_Don Herman]

Ummm... I don't get it? Interesting, maybe, but just measuring the mpc popping frequency has little relevance, it seems to me. The fundamental and overtone series (it's not neccessarily strictly a "harmonic series" because of the flare in the tubing, from mpc to bell, which will encourage some nonharmonic tones) are set by the mpc IN the horn, as PLAYED by you, yes? So, the mpc alone doesn't really determine anything in particular, as I see it. It's part of a system which determines your playing tonal structure (frequency response, impulse response, distortion, etc.) For that matter, how much of your palm when you pop it, or lip when you play it, goes into the mpc will also alter it's tonal balance (I'm groping for words other than "frequency response" or "power spectral density", please bear with me) and fundamental "pop" frequency (pitch). Seems to me everybody would have a slightly different "perfect pop pitch" (three p's ) for them and their horn(s)... Which then varies with temperature, chop swelling (however minute), etc.

This does not mean it's unimportant, just that I don't quite see how much it matters (if at all) without taking the total system (player, mpc, horn) into account. Perhaps somebody will do, or has done, a study relating it to the horn? Is there a way to help choose a mpc for a given horn, knowing the horn's characteristics and your physical playing characterstics (e.g. embouchure)?

I seem to recall a thread a while back on the difference in pitch between striking from the rim (playing) side or bore (horn) side. Don't recall what, if any conclusions were made then, either.

My microcent -- I'm going to hump over to GR's site and see what they say about the situation just for grins. Bet there's some good info there!

Somewhat confused, as usual - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[B. Scriver]

Great post Don! You are right on the money. Now a little more food for thought:
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/questions22.htm

Brian Scriver
http://www.grmouthpieces.com