Perminant damage? Embouchure Questions

derekjacoby · New Member Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Posts: 8

It's hard to find a short way to pose my question. I'll just start with what I think I know.

since the age of 10 to the age of 20, I used an embouchure that was completely wrong. The only compression I could get was from using extreme excess pressure. At the age of 20, my teacher and I decided to risk it and change the embouchure. The sound got better, substancially, but the range and endurance remained basically the same. At my age, I still can't consistently play above an A above the staff. Notes D and above just didn't happen but maybe once a day. This embouchure change moved the trumpet to the middle of the top lip but not quite to the middle of the bottom one. Just recently, at the age of 25, I altered my emboucher again (of my own accord) but only slightly. Now my lips align completely when I play. Since doing this, and it has only been about a week, I can now play my scales, 2 octaves, up to G above high c every day, albeit rather pinched. The sound is even better, so here's my question, I suppose?

Could there have been perminant damage from my extreme pressure years? Does anyone have experience or knowledge of that? I know that Charles Colin mentions this in all his books. Even though my max range has increased, my comfortable, easy range still remains at about an F on top of the staff. Anything past that, I start working and 20 minutes down the line, I'm tired and suffering. I've observed a lot of players while dealing with this and it just seems to me that I'm working as hard on my G on top of the staff as they are doing on their high Ds or Es. It really feels that my lip resists buzzing even after I have analyzed with a microscope to make sure things are in the right place.

Any thoughts? Similar Experiences?

monetteplayerdbc · Regular Member Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 56

For what it's worth, the most important thing is a beautiful full sound--you keep mentioning range. That is not the end all of trumpet playing. You also need to be aware of a comfort level when you play. There is something called a "natural embrochure" which simply means you just put the horn to your chops where they "feel" right", and play. Everything else comes with practicing, being dedicated to playing and practicing pretty much everyday, with a day off here and there when you feel you need a break. Playing the trumpet is physical, mental, musical AND SPIRITUAL form of artistic expression, and many forget the latter...

I'm sure we've all heard players that have technique and range, but they just don't SOUND good...a pinched, small sound, or air in their sound, a thinnning in one range direction or another, sloppy sound to their articulation because of a basically bad sound. I've even heard guys who sound like they are creating an overtone in a certain range of the instrument that sounds very ugly.

You have to "feel good" when you play, "sound good" to yourself and others obviously, and play musically with expression and style, soul, whatever you want to call it. Most do not. They play notes they see on a page and are just concererned with Hitting the right note at the right time..it's a shame, but many players, young and old, neglect to work on their SOUND ! A full, fat beautiful, singing sound in ALL registers. That's the most important thing. Because if you don't sound good, it doesn't matter how high or fast you can play, and most non-trumpeters would rather not hear fast and high anyway...

derekjacoby · New Member Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Posts: 8

Monette player,

I completely agree with you. I have built everything that I have done on trumpet on exactly those principles. I did what I could do, which was mainly jazz (so I could choose what notes I played when), and I always worked to make a statement and do it as musically as I could. But these problems keep me from comfortably obtaining what should be run-of-the-mill sightread-able type work to pay bills with confidence. I'm hoping that there is something technical or mechanical I can do to solve this over some period of time but I do know where the true emphasis should be, on the music. With a correct or working embouchure I would hope to express myself better. Though I mentioned high gs in scales, I would love to be able to claim even just a high c as my upper note.

Matsumike · Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:09 am Post subject:

You know, I had a similar problme at your age and unfortunatly laid my horn down and went on to other things. Now some 30 years later I picked it up again in earnest. I am approaching the horn in a much different way and having much mush more FUN! I have been playing for about 3 months now, and my tone is better, I believe, than when I quit and I have my usable range pushing high C ( I can 'hit' D & E, but not in a usable, musical way). My embochure was always a problem and so when I came back I determined to spend time and effort in developing a more fexible and usable lip, as well as a more flowing smooth style. After much study I have focused on the BE studies with Jeff Smiley. I would recommed these to anyone in your situation.

You are probably a much more accomplished player than I, and have been playing consistently longer ....so if I am out of line, sorry...but it might be worth a "look see".

..... Herv
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_dcstep · Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:38 am Post subject:

I think that you should practice your range every day that you practice. It will not harm you to do so, so long as you don't do it by brute force, but with good support and proper technique, which you seem to have developed.

Monette player is right that you should always be musical, but isn't it so much easier to be musical when you don't have to worry about notes in the top-line F to high-C range? For someone that can play G over high C, those notes ARE NOT HIGH, leaving the trumpeter to focus on interpretation, rather than worrying about whether you can "hit" it, or avoiding it.

Having good range doesn't suddenly mean that all musical taste goes out the window. The main advantage of range over high-C, for most of us, is that we play with so much more security up to high-C. Keep working on that G. It'll speak more clearly with more work.

To solidify your musicality, practice playing simple songs like "Londonderry Aire" or "Amazing Grace" up in the high register. Play softly, but in control and with good intonation. Don't just do scales and arpeggios up to that G, but actually work on a little music up there. Give yourself plenty of rest and if it gets ragged, put the horn down for a few minutes.

Dave
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Mouse · Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:02 am Post subject:

I second the BE (balanced embouchure) recommendation. The book is only $40. It's opened up a whole new world for me. BE's most simple concept, that of rolling the lips in for upper range, is powerful! It takes some time and work to fully develop the new embouchure, but I'll never go back to my old embouchure.

By the way, I injured my lip while buzzing on the mouthpiece three years ago. It's never healed completely. I struggled with the injury until starting BE. The injury is still there, but I can now play for long periods of time and with range including high C.

_bugleboy

_dcstep

Pops · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:44 am Post subject:

I have seen permanant damage before but they KNEW it .
They didn't have any question.

Mostly it comes when the muscle tears or snaps. EXTREME pain and no questions about IF there is damage.

But many of those people can still play.

If your lips are weak do the pencil exercise for 2 minutes a day. NEVER more than 4 any day.

Work on using the tongue more than the face to play. http://www.bbtrumpet.com/arch.html
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Josiah Chasteen · Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject:

I just made a change to my chops. My instructor pointed out that I was pulling my upper lip out of the mp, which way hindering my range. So I changed it over the sommer. I think my range I about where it was before, my endurance needs a little work. I think that it was for the best. It's not like I had anything to lose.