cheap, but good mics?

jamesfrmphilly · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:58 am Post subject: cheap, but good mics?

i went to staples and got a mic for $10 and recorded myself on my PC.
it sounds as though i'm on a $10 mic!

are there any cheep(cheap) mics that can record the full range of a trumpet?
is it the same as a mic for voice?

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crzytptman · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:37 am Post subject:

Have you ever recorded on a $10.00 mic in a studio? I haven't, so I think it does make a difference. The cheapest good sounding mic for tpt in my opinion is the Sure beta57. In the studio I prefer Sennheiser 421 or AKG 414. Of course, if they have any Neuman's or vintage tube mics . . .
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pfrank · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:56 am Post subject:

Vocal mics have too much high-mid range, the exact frequencies trumpet has more than enough of, so you sound metalic through a vocal mic. Instrument mics have a more flat responce. I use an Audix D2 which is made for drums, but makes trumpet sound warm. (I have had club engineers comment that they don't have to roll-off so much high end from my set-up, and that I sound more natural) For home recording, a bit of digital reverb always is nice to make it sound natural.

_londonhusker · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 Oct 2002 Posts: 658

James,

You might like the Sennheiser Evolution E604, as well as its price. It sounds real good, takes a lot of volume without distortion, and is versitile enough for both live PA and recording. I got mine on eBay US for a really good price about nine months ago.

regards

Dave

FatPauly · Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: cheap, but good mics?

It's not just the mic you are fighting here, but also the preamp on your PC soundcard. These are just not cut out for serious work.

Go to 8th Street Music in town and let them show you some setups. Something like a Shure SM57 + a small Behringer mixer w/preamp will do a good job. Also, if they sell the Marshall line of mics, check out the 603 model.

The suggestions to try some drum mics like the Audix or Sennheiser are definitely worth trying too. I used to have a set of the 604s but sold them before I got back into trumpets.

Good luck. If you ever feel like coming all the way down to Baltimore, I would be happy to record your Committee with some of my mics and see which sound best.

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland

OCTA-C · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:24 am Post subject:

I picked up two Samson CO1 Condensor mics' for $59.00 apiece, brand new! These are studio quality at an economical price and sound very, very good. The only extra needed is a phantom power unit.

FatPauly · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:15 am Post subject:

Phantom power is needed to charge the capsule of the mic, but if you are plugging these directly into your recorder or soundcard, you are not getting anything close to the maximum performance of your mic.

If you read my history of posts on the subject of recording and mics, I always harp on the importance of good preamps. The mic itself puts out a very low level signal, and to bring that level up to Line level is not trivial. Although you can get enough boost to print a signal into your recorder directly, the quality of that signal is much less than if a dedicated preamp is used.

Of course, preamps vary in price and quality. Cheapest unit costs about $30 per channel (like in the small Behringer mixers) on up to several thousand dollars per channel. Kinda like ebay trumpets!

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland

Billy B · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:08 am Post subject:

P,

I use a AKG 419 clip on mic. It requires phantom power. Will I get a better sound using a pre-amp before sending the signal through a 150' snake?

pfrank · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:04 am Post subject:

You'll get better sound with a preamp before or after any length of cable. I use the ART tube preamps (about $50-$80) because the input level can be attenuated for a high sound level without resorting to the PAD button (db cut) (trumpet is much louder than voice or guitar output) so it doesn't distort. (Every other cheep preamp I tried distorted) You can go in and out using XLR cables so it stays low impedance, a necessity with long cables.

mulligan stew · Heavyweight Member Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 1846

I'll second a few things here--the ART Tube preamps are fantastic and inexpensive, and the Behringer mixing boards--esp. something like the Euro Mini--is nice (some call the behringers cheap knock-offs of Mackies, and they may be right. But they work well).

You could get both from a place like Musician's Friend for probably $170, incl. shipping.

BillyB--are you talking about a gigging situation where you don't control the sound system being used?
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pfrank · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:22 am Post subject:

I use the Berringer too! The Euro 800...it is very quiet, and has effect send/return, and a choice of XLR or 1/4" inputs. Cost $49 at Guitar Center (same as Musician's Friend) For around $80 I coulda got Stereo effect send/return and 4 XLR capable inputs. A real live German person told me they were better than their U.S. reputation; he'd been using them for years.

junkyt · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:38 pm Post subject: Audio Technica

i bought a used audio technica (sorry, don't remember the model number) on ebay for $11, and it sounds great!
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FatPauly · Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:49 pm Post subject:

BB -

You will definitely get a better sound. However, you FOH guy will probably hate you if you muck with the gain once he has set it!

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland

pfrank · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:19 am Post subject:

What is FOH? Full Of Hooey? Having on stage control of volume and eq is a very good thing because sound checks are usually done in an empty house, and once it's packed with bodies, everything changes.

FatPauly · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:59 am Post subject:

FOH = Front of House. That is, your soundman. FOH engineers control the sound the audience hears. Some bands also have a Monitor engineer, whose job it is to control the mixes that go to the performers.

If you don't trust your soundman to control your sound, then go ahead and insert a preamp near you. Then go ahead and fire him because he is probably doing more harm than good.

Otherwise let him do his job - mix the bands sound and keep things from getting sonically out of control. A professional FOH engineer should be on top of things and not let the musicans individually control their levels.

- Paul Artola
Ellicott City, Maryland

pfrank · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:12 am Post subject:

Oh how silly of me, of course! I should know that, I play in places all the time that have two mixing areas, one for FOH and one for the monitors. Usually the monitor mix is done from a location close to onstage.

BUT usually a club/theatre/whatever has an engineer on hand who knows the equipment and we don't carry around and pay for someone to interfeer with That guy, even for an extra tweek.
Problem is, so few bands have horns (where I play in the club circuit) that these house sound guys are clueless about horn mixing. Really. They think in order of volume: vocal, bass drum, guitar, rest of drum kit...then later that afternoon, horns. Horns? "You guys will be fine with one mic, right? huh?" (that's because their ears are blown out by years of exposure to high sound pressure) At high sound pressure, even acoustic trumpet dissapears. I even cary my own onstage monitor. You never know what you will find out there.

etownfwd · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:32 pm Post subject:

I hope I am not beating the dead horse, or joining the "ASK PAULY" segment of the show.

But, Pauly, what Mic is a quality Mic to record practice sessions and SOME gigs when partnering it with a new MD recorder? BTW, it's ok if this isn't your field of expertise, I am just curious... Oh, and I already know how you feel about MD's so go ahead and rip again!

-efwd

FatPauly · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:08 pm Post subject:

Happy to share my opinions and experience, but keep in mind that after years and years of NOT buying the right equipment, I am a proponent of spending money wisely on recording gear so you don't have to keep rebuying the same thing over and over.

I think you will get more utility and quality getting a modest mic and a good preamp, rather than just getting a nice mic. In my studio, I have one preamp that is worth more than all my mics combined, but that preamp is worth every penny and has elevated my recordings to a level that was unachievable without it.

Ok, as far as mics go, I recommend getting to a pro audio store and auditioning the following, if possible:

Shure SM57
Marshall 603S
Rode NT5 and N4

These vary in price and function. The SM57 is a dynamic mic, so it does not require phantom power like the others. Also, it is tough as nails so dropping it on stage is not a calamity like with the others. Many pro engineers will tell you the SM57 is the one mic to have on the proverbial desert island because it sounds OK on anything and sucks on nothing.

The Marshall and Rode mics are all small capsule condensors, so they require phantom power, and are a little tough but not really up for manhandling by teamsters, if you get my drift, whereas the SM57 often closes down bars with teamsters!

The Marshall is reported to be a very useful little mic for a good price (under $100), which is the same price neighborhood as the SM57. The Rode NT5 (actually sold as a matched pair of mics) are usually BIN in ebay for about $300 and the NT4 (a single body with stereo heads) is more like $400-450, I think.

Some other mics to try, if possible, are the Shure SM81, Studio Projects small cap condensor (forget the model right now), and some drum mics as recommended elsewhere on the forum (Audix D5 and Sennheiser E604, in particular).

A friend records his flute practices with a minidisc recorder and the NT4 and NO preamp, and reports excellent results. It can be powered by battery, so no external phantom power is required, but I still think getting a preamp inline is the optimal way to go. However, for true quality and simplicity, a MD recorder and the NT4 are probably a good match.

Small preamps can be had for as little as $50 in tiny Behringer mixers, and nicer standalone units from companies like Presonus, ART, and Studio Projects are also worth considering. Poke around ebay and you will see these units pretty regularly and decently priced.

Now, if you are willing to rob a bank and get something really fine, check out the gear at www.mercenary.com, especially something like the Royer SF-24 and a couple of channels of John Hardy or GreatRiver preamps.

Hope this helps.

- Paul Artola
Former keyboardist for MORE TOYS THAN TALENT
Ellicott City, Maryland

tom turner · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:26 am Post subject:

Hi,

There are several truly wonderful mics for trumpet by Audio-Technica that are now upgraded and discontinued. All the model numbers I'm going to list pop up on eBay fairly regularly, and all are designed to be INSTRUMENT mics rather than a VOCAL mic.

In other words, their frequency response is "flat" and isn't rolled off in the bass area, AND doesn't these mics don't peak about 6dB hotter in the upper midranges like vocal mics that one sings into at 3 inches.

BOTTOM LINE . . . Your trumpet has a solid, rich "body" to its sound (vs. "thin") . . . and the upper overtones don't sound like "razor blades in the wind."

These mics come up on eBay fairly regularly. I missed out on an ATM-11r a couple of weeks ago for chump change!

IN DECENDING ORDER OF PREFERENCE:

1. Audio-Technica ATM-11r -- The phantom power version of the ATM-11, it has slightly more "headroom," which is great when recording trumpet. This mic was in A-T's professional line-up 15-20 years ago.

2. Audio-Technica ATM-11 -- The single "AA" battery-powered version of the ATM-11r, so you don't need a board with phantom power to use it. Wonderful headroom and a very natural trumpet sound. These mics are great from 4" to recording live performances of large musical groups.

3. Audio-Technica 813 -- The consumer version of the A-T 11, it is also single "AA" battery powered with a little less headroom. It uses the same mic head as the ATM-11 though! It is also a 600 ohm impedence mic, vs. 200 ohm used in their professional series, yet still retains a balanced line output.

I've used all three and all work very well. Sometimes you can get these mics for $20-$50 on e-Bay. I know from experience.

MY LATEST E-BAY FIND . . .

A current studio A-T condenser made to record brass and such. It is an A-T 4041 that I got for about $120 bucks! This, being a studio mic, it is much more "fragile" in its suspension system . . . and very accurate and transparent.

For live gigs I mic my trumpet with an AKG SR-80 wireless system (w/ C-419 mic) or an Audio-Technica ATM-11. For my vocal mic I ALSO use an ATM-11 . . . it gives me a richness that I don't have with a vocal mic like a Shure SM-58 or SM-57 . . . and is natural but flat in the upper mids too. Perfect for my voice.

I HATE TONE CONTROLS!!! I call them "phase shifters," for tone controls smear the sound and destroy the overtone series. So . . . I select equipment that sound right WITHOUT needed to be boosted or cut on with tone controls.

Just like selecting a trumpet, use your ears to LISTEN how equipment sounds. When it sounds RIGHT you are getting good equipment! When you have to EQ something, you are buying less accurate equipment. If you've GOT to be amplified, make sure it just sounds like you do when you are playing naturally . . . just that it's LOUDER!

Also, like PFrank said, the house soundman thinks of horns last. In the same order of instruments he mentioned, the trumpet is last to be considered. I finally "took control" and now bring my own mixer/sound effects stuff in a custom cabinet I built to house my stuff.

I plug the house's balanced mic cable into my BOARD . . . not my mic. My mic goes into my board, I add the effects I want . . . and THEN my board sends a 200 ohm balanced mic-level signal to the house via the mic cable the house provided for my mic.

I then control (independently) another output level from my board to my amp that I use to power my own personal monitor speakers.

After years of getting really upset sometimes, I now never worry about the house mix anywhere . . . and never worry about not being able to hear either! It's been soooooooooo nice!!!

The sound men seem to like it too . . . less things for them to screw up!

Tom

Jansu · Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:44 am Post subject:

Personal monitor, is probably the sweetest thing i have ever heard! aaah...

Now, I've seen horn sections where the guys have little black boxes strapped to their belts or whatever, with two knobs that i'm assuming are something like volume and tone. This something like what you are talking about? I would rather not carry around a huge amount of electronics, so what would be a minimal approah? I'm assuming the personal monitor is an earphone, and the volume knob should be in an easily reachable place, not on the floor. If I dont want to run effects (reverb etc.), and just have a system so I can hear myself. What would be a minimal approach? Can the signal from the mic be divided into, and then the other run through a preamp/poweramp combo (on my belt)? What would I need to purchase, if the house has microphones?
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