hardest orchestral piece/excerpt

[trumpetgeek234]

Which orchestral piece/excerpts do you guys find the hardest to play. Not only technically but also musically and intonationwise.

IMO J.S. Bach's pieces are the hardest.
I also think that rite of spring is rythmically and in range a damn hard piece.
What do you think are the hardest pieces for the whole orchestra?

[TJH]

Anything by Charles Ives can be tough on the whole ensemble.

Aaron Copland's 2nd symphony is also a real challenge on the entire orchestra.

Disclaimer: My opinions are based only on looking at the scores, and by talking to guys with experience conducting. Beyond the "Fanfare" and Quiet City, I've never attempted any Copland. Forget about Ives; if I'm lucky I *might* get a chance to play an Ives piece arranged for concert band.

From what I've also heard, the Rite of Spring has become an established warhorse for all conductors regardless of what repetoire they may specialize in. As a result, it's no longer regarded as a lofty or incredibly difficult piece. I think another factor in the change or perceptions could be the fact that there is an entire generation of virtuoso-level professional musicians who grew up listening to their predecessors' recordings of the Rite, so it's not new to them.

Having said that, I wish I had the technical ability to just sight read it (or anything by Bach, for that matter.) Just imagine how the Rite challenged the musicians during rehersals for its premiere.

[budthorn]

for excerpts, I agree that Bach is very challenging, at least endurance wise. Any Stravinsky will be tough. But for the whole orchestra, I think Michael Torke might take the cake. In Torke's Bright Blue Music, there are some incredibly difficult things. In some cases, each individual entrance, in different sections, is seperated by a 16th note, and it just goes on and on like that. Not very easy. but it is kind of fun.

[kjb]

Excerpts are one thing - real orchestra playing is a completely different story. Playing the Promenade from "Pictures at an Exhibition" is do-able in the practice room, or at an audition, but playing the entire piece in an orchestral performance is quite challenging (I should know. I did it in April.) The same goes for many, if not all, of the common orchestral pieces.

On that note, I find that Beethoven 7 is difficult, endurance wise. The fourth movement repeats, and repeats, and repeats. . . You get the point. I'll also agree that "Rite of Spring" is quite difficult for the whole ensemble. If just one little second violin isn't counting, there goes the piece. The Ives symphonies are also very difficult.
For the trumpet, here is my top five (in no order):
1) Pictures (endurance)
2) Bach
3) Symphonie Domestica
4) Bartok Concerto for Orchestra
5) Britten Four Sea Interludes

Cheers,
kjb

[johntpt]

Stravinsky certainly ranks up there in terms of technical difficulty, although Petrouchka, Soldier's Tale and Song of the Nightengale are all more difficult than the Rite. The Rite actually isn't that hard after you practice it a few times.

Many pieces by Ravel are extremely technically challenging, especially Daphnis & Chloe, Alborada del Gracioso, Pictures, both Piano Concertos, and La Valse. Look out for the Daphnis 2nd Suite - all 4 trumpet parts are really hard. Kicks my butt every time.

In terms of endurance most Bruckners, certain Mahlers (2, 3, 5, 6, and 7), and certain Shostakovichs (4, 5, 7, 11, 12) are all very difficult. And of course Poem of Ecstacy.

Another type of difficulty for trumpet players is what might be called "psychological difficulties". Some people call this "head games" or whatever. Lots of pieces fall into this catagory - Also Sprach Zarathustra, Schumann 2, and Brahms 2 (or really just about anything by Brahms) come to mind.

A sub-category of the pieces difficult "psychologically" is pieces with difficult first entrances. For example, many players think that Wagner's Rienzi Overture is extremely difficult for this reason - I think it's way over-rated in this sense. Other pieces I'd put in this category are Tchaik 4, Mahler 5, Pictures, and Schumann 2.

There's a whole repertory we play here of Mexican music, most of which has very challenging trumpet parts. Pretty much any piece by Revueltas will be very difficult, especially the Hommage to Garcia Lorca. Same goes for Chavez - check out the Horse Power Suite.

John Urness

[TJH]

Just a tangential question:

when you auditioned for the Mexican orchestra you play in, did they throw any excerpts from Revueltas, Chavez or other latin-american composers at you?

I've always wondered how strictly one can get by knowing just the "top 50" excerpts. The list seems pretty Euro-centric. If Wagner isn't on a particular orchestra's immediate radar screen, why see if a guy or gal will crack the famous crescendo-dimuendo in Rienzi? Wouldn't it be better to see how well the applicant can handle stuff the orchestra will actually play?

I come to you in complete ignorance as to how top-level auditions are conducted.

[tcutrpt]

John, you aren't kidding about Chavez! I'm pretty sure it's the same composer who wrote a piece I played this past semester. Sinfonia India was the title. The trumpets blow continously on the last two pages and most of the first part is crisp and fast single tonguing licks above the staff including rips and large intervals! That piece is CRAZY! As far as excerpts go...I find Petrouschka very hard. The ballerina's dance just doesn't fit my playing well. Guess I better practice!!

Matt

[johntpt]

Yes the Sinfonia India is a lot of fun to play and is probably Chavez's most popular piece. Many musicians here think that it may not be by Chavez but by one of his students because it doesn't sound much like the dissonant and modern music he usually wrote. But whoever wrote it the Sinfonia India is a pretty piece and keeps the trumpets working hard. To me it sounds like Mexican Copland. If you don't know it check out the New World Symphony recording which I believe features Tony Di Lorenzo on trumpet.

How I got my job here is probably too long of a story for this thread, but I won my job by getting a chance to prove myself in the chair for a week after having submitted a tape. I think that's the best way to do it.

You're right about how knowing the top 50 excerpts doesn't always make someone the best player for the job. I think this is most obvious at section auditions. What does being able to nail Mahler 5 or Petrouchka have to do with being a good 4th trumpet player? Probably the best way to audition for a section position would be to play a few duets with the principal player behind a screen. The committee would be able to hear instantly if the candidate has good pitch, the ability to follow, and a sound that will fit in, the qualities that make for a good section player.

Anyways these things could probably be better discussed in another topic.

John Urness

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 08:27 ]

[_Don Herman]

Quick aside... John said: "Probably the best way to audition for a section position would be to play a few duets with the principal player behind a screen. The committee would be able to hear instantly if the candidate has good pitch, the ability to follow, and a sound that will fit in, the qualities that make for a good section player. "

That's exactly the approach my teacher (principal in the orchestra) is planning to take for 2nd tpt audtions, which could be happening before much longer. He and I have played some of the duets, while he tried a few things including ornamentation, playing with the time/rhythym (do you do it right, or match the principal? -- match!), as well as intonation and sound/tone/style. The trick (for me) was to quickly pick up what he did and match to him, whether it was dialing in the chord pitch or matching a simple ornamentation. If he starts swinging and I'm still playing it straight at the end of the duet, I lose!

Fun stuff! - Don

p.s. To stay with the topic, I find the challenges are exactly as stated above, from the slow die out to nothing in the very simple Pines of Rome, to making the Ballerina's Dance sound anything like Phil Smith does it , to getting a piece and discovering the 3rd trumpet part is the high part and plays for an eternity with no break!
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[trumpetnerd7]

Yah i would have to say a few of my hardest excerpts are......
pines of rome ( just played that at a concert )
anything strauss
anything bach
petrouchska ( sp.? )

My youth symphony is going on tour this summer, and one of our concerts we have to play Mahler 5, Pines of Rome, an American in Paris, and Star Wars all in a row! i think my lips will begin to bleed after that. hahaha
-scott cook

[jdh]

Well....I guess I'll add my list:

Music for the Theater - Copland
Ravel piano Concerto
Petrushka
Pic part for Rite of Spring

Those are the pieces that still have to potential to kick my butt in the practice room and on the stage. I played the Copland the the pic part for the Rite of Spring and I survived, but I would need a little time before I would go at them again.

Jeff Holbrook

[trumpet1]

Profanations: Bernstein
Apocalyptic Dreams: Gillingham

[nc~trumpet]

I am in agrement with everyone. I find Stravinsky music very hard but also very rewarding when I finally get it right.

[sfenick]

the Stravinsky and Strauss pieces mentioned. Also Copland's Third Symphony. Most everything by Ravel that involves trumpet is a bear. One I haven't seen mentioned that I found challenging was Symphonic Dances rom West Side Story. Technically speaking, it isn't horrendous, but it goes all over the horn range-wise and dynamically, and is a real chop-killer. Another one I haven't seen is Feste Romane by Respighi. Technically, this one is rough.