Sound Sleeves Good or Bad??

[Nonsense Eliminator]

Two suggestions:

1.) Discussions go better when they focus on the subject matter, not the people in the discussion.

2.) Discussions go better when people don't feel compelled to take sides, and to artificially invent sides to be on. I am puzzled as to how John and Chris end up on opposite sides of this discussion:

John wrote:
"I think both [sleeves and heavy mouthpieces] are a waste of your money."

Chris wrote:
"I think all that extra weight in the mp, and on the horn... just makes things harder."



I happen to disagree with John on whether mouthpiece boosters have an effect. But I happen to agree with him that they offer more hype than results. So whose side am I on?

(Answer for the incurably dense: Nobody's.)

I am not going to argue about physics. The one thing I think we can conclusively state about trumpet physics is that it's damn complicated. There is a lot of disagreement on a lot of topics from the lips right out to the bell.

What I will talk about is my observations. I played with a Denis Wick booster for about a year, when I was a student. I found it did make the horn slot more securely, as advertised, and it did tend to lead to a heavier sound that was easier to control at extremely loud dynamics. However, it also resulted in thick, dead articulations and and a rather inflexible, colourless sound. One day in rehearsal I was trying to play something light and delicate, and I took the booster off and never used it again on the big horns.

The only use I have for my booster is sometimes I will use it on piccolo trumpet, when I'm playing something loud and obnoxious (like Schmuyle or the end of Petrushka). I find it somewhat mitigates the ducklike character of the piccolo trumpet -- although it also deadens the response, so I often leave it off in these situations as well. Fundamentally, I think that for a lot of people the attractiveness of heavy mouthpieces comes from mistaking "dull, thick and dead" for "warm, dark and mellow."

I would say that my observations are fairly typical of my colleagues. The incidence of Megatone mouthpieces is a lot higher in high school marching bands than in professional symphony orchestras. Generally, I think it's fair to say that I just don't like the deadness in the sound that heavy equipment tends to produce. Some people do, and they're welcome to play whatever they want. If you're thinking about adding mass to your mouthpiece, though, I would simply suggest that you listen carefully for what I would call the "negative" effects of the extra mass.

[John Mohan]

Thanks for your reply Chris.

You're right - in the playing world I'd be a real jerk if I volunteered my playing accomplishments all the time.

But here on the Internet, I can't let my playing do the talking 'cause no one can hear me. I can only list as my credentials what my playing ability has obtained for me success-wise. I wish more of the pros including you would do the same here. Not for my sake, but for the sake of the beginner and intermediate players out there struggling and trying to figure out how to make that piece of pipe known as a trumpet work!

When I am trying to learn about a subject I don't know much about, I like to know the qualifications of those I ask. I certainly don't want to be influenced by the opinions of those who might have even less experience than me about a particular subject.

This is the reason a Doctor hangs his diploma on the wall. He's not being egotistical, he's being sensible. Just as everyone is concerned that their Doctor or other professional is qualified, I'm sure students who take part in this forum want to know who's qualified to give them advice.

Last think I want to add to this whole discussion:

I want to be clear that the opinion I've expressed about "mouthpiece sleeves" is in reference only to the type of sleeves that are designed to add mass to the mouthpiece. I have not been referring in any of this discussion to the Bob Reeves Mouthpiece Sleeve System that is designed to increase or decrease the Gap between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the trumpet's leadpipe. This might or might not be a worthy item. I happen to think it probably does serve a useful purpose, but I've never tried it so my opinion on this would truly by uninformed (but not "misinformed").

Thanks again for your reply,

John Mohan
Just another...Ah, what the heck, you know what I've done and where I've been

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

Perhaps all should go back a couple of pages and there you will see
that Mr. John Mohan's real position, that he's been debating, is that
no booster or heavy mouthpiece has any effect whatsoever on the
way a trumpet plays. He's not saying they hurt the way a trumpet
plays, he's saying that physics proves that no added mass on a
trumpet mouthpiece can have any effect at all. He repeatedly
states that it is "all just in our minds", and he likes to end his
pontifications with words such as, "Period. End of story!

JM, the reason that others chime in with somewhat rude and
condecending remarks is that you yourself are so very rude and
condescending. Please note that there is not one other single person
anywhere at all on this thread that agrees with your ascertion that these
mouthpieces with added mass have no effect on the way trumpets play.
To the contrary, everyone who has expressed an opinion or related an
experience has stated the exact opposite. Nobody ever said that these
heavy mouthpieces help everyone, but this has never been an issue.
Tom, Chris and I recognize the ego that drives you could use just a
little bit of deflating. Long ago I complemented all your credentials
and fine trumpet playing, and tried to reach a very generous and
reasonable compromise with you, but you just wouldn't have it.
Now you try to divert the conversation to trumpet bell rings
and sleeves that are intended to adjust the gap, but I do
not believe anyone is being thrown off your by these
very transparent tactics. I also see you playing the
victim, "Oh, Tom and Chris, how can you treat me
this way?" Nodes and antinodes is the physics in
question. The biggest antinode creating the
biggest effect on the trumpet's sound and
slotting is in the mouthpiece. All the mass
we add in this area helps the slotting and
projection the most, but also have a
very significant effect on several
other aspects of the way our
instruments behave. These
are not delusions that only
exist in the minds of some
gullible trumpeters. They
are the facts, Period.
End of story... Tom

[RNelson]

Well.....

Since my name was brought up I might as well chime in. Those that know me understand that I can't stay out of a good debate!

I will start with the main topic first. I agree with Nonsense Eliminator 100%. And to quote the great NE, "....if you've followed our discussions in the Politics forum, that's saying something..."'

Hey NE, great idea on the added weight on the picc for Stravinsky. I always hated the way that lick comes off, "duck" is right. I will try that.

Now about this other stuff....

John, its one thing to post your resume....to each his own. What you have a habit of doing is making a statement...cool, and when it is challenged you have this hoooorible habit of holding up your past gigs, your years in the business, or worse yet, your teacher, in order to somehow validate your argument. It rings of, "Hey, don't you know who you're talking too...PAL". Whether you mean it or not, that's how you come off.

Personally, I think it tacky to evoke the name of Mr. Gordon, especially when it has no relevance to the argument. And to be honest, nobody cares if you studied with Mr. Gordon for 14 years, or 400 years. I grew up in So. Cal. and knew a ton of Mr. Gordon's students, some who sucked, and some who could play. In the end, it does not matter....on the bandstand, or on this forum, it just does not matter...unless the topic is about Mr. Gordon.

I think the quality of an idea within a post should stand on its own. There are a lot of pros at different levels on this forum and I am glad that the majority do not use their pro status to "bully" an argument. That's just wrong.

I have always said, on this forum and others, that resumes should stay out of the equation. Everyone has a resume, and yes, most are inflated. Chris is right in that cats that are out doing it don't talk about it.

Remember Mr. Clean? I read his posts for a long time and would think to myself, "Man, this cat knows his stuff". It was months before I found out who he was. He never used his position or status to prop up an idea.

I agree that its nice to see who is posting, but I understand why guys often keep a low profile.

You have a lot to offer John, but you would be well served to let your ideas stand or fall on their own.

Look at NE, he never throws his Principal status around in political debates. He allows his whacked out, pinko, commie, Hillary loving, left of Ted Kennedy ideas to fall apart on their own merits!!

Sorry man...could not resist.

Ray
www.raynelson.net

[FlugelFlyer]

I know John personally, and he's not the type of person who needs to feel special, something that can't be said about quite a few people around here. People can use whatever they want in their defense, and people will see resumes for what they are. John has an opinion, and many other great pros have opinions. One should take them all into consideration and decipher the arguments based on the evidence provided.


That said, here's my challenge to someone. Use a soundsleeve for a week and tell me what the difference between using it and not using it is. Now use it for a year and tell me what the difference is. I have to agree with John somewhat but on my own terms. Any difference, real or conceived, is going to be magnified at first but will disappear as time wares on as I've found. That said, let an educated audience who has listened to enough trumpeters judge you. If they find a huge difference, go with the sound sleeve. If they don't find a difference, they probably have their own good reasons why. Having heard an individual once play a lightweight Yamaha in a church then a heavy Couesnon EVI myself, the difference isn't as great as once might perceive it to be IMHO.
_________________
Trumpet: Bach 180LR, 72 bell
Mouthpiece: Warburton 3XD/KT

[_londonhusker]

edit: post removed by author

corrections made above
post no longer pertinent

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

Londonhusker,

This is not the proper thread for this discussion. The idea that the
lowest part trumpeters in a big jazz band should play with a lead
player's screaming tone is just so silly.

Trumpet Manor was the guy on the other thread who agrees that
trumpeters in a big jazz band trumpet section should all play with
the same paint peeling type tone as the lead player.

The person debating with me on this thread is actually John Mohan. His
stance is that no mouthpiece with added weight can effect the way any
trumpet plays in any way whatsoever, and that all the people who claim
otherwise are having a kind of delusion that exists "only in their minds!"

Please stop following me from one thread to the next just to continue
debating this big band blending issue. Lets just call it a draw and not
continue this off topic debate on this thread anymore. I want you to
know that I mean it when I say I am still...

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR

[_londonhusker]

Glad I could help, big guy!

Only two things to address (since I'm already here) and I'll be done....

1. Regarding my concept of section blend, I excerpt the following from the last two paragraphs of a post that I asked you, Tom, to carefully read again...

... but polyphonic textures (eg. line against line) abound in big band music as well, often using diverse combinations of instruments to create interesting new tone colors. Here, blending hardly matters. You won't be able to match timbre with a sax player... and nobody wants you to anyway. Balance is paramount here, not blend. One needs to hear appropriate volumes of each voice so the desired effect of the combination is not lost.

.... I think it also implies that timbre-matching is not high priority. Screamer-type trumpet scoring generally puts the lead into a tessitura where their sound will often leave the texture and will not blend with the section below it. Balanced, yes, but not blended. The section chords in this style are often voiced in more open positions, whereas closer voicings suggest a greater emphasis on blend, encouraging the listener to hear the entire section together as one texture.

Those are my words. Take from that whatever you wish.

2. Am I in agreement with John, too? (regarding the sound sleeve issue)

I think, Tom, if you read carefully, you'll find that I addressed the "extra mass issue" on page 2 of this very thread, immediately following a post of your own. I clearly described my experiences as inconclusive, and offered insight into the differences between scientific research and informative articles as well.

Regards

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

London, Here you are back again with the same off topic debate. This is
the very last time I will discuss this with you on this thread or any other.

(1) Look at all the testimonials about "big band blending". Not one single
person agrees with you or TM.
(2) Look at all the testimonials about "mouthpiece mass". Not one single
person agrees with you or JM.
(3) How about you stop debating me on topics that have nothing to do
with the threads you keep following me onto?

I do not participate in threads where everyone is in agreement about
insignificant non-issues. I'll be where there is controversy, and I'm not
always right, but I'll be doing what I can to help shed light on the issues
and trying to make a significant contribution to the discussion. I am not
here to win popularity contests or be a part of chatty little conversations.

Talking about things that are controversial is always going to involve a
little head butting, it just goes with the territory. I accept that, but you're
crossing the line, and it's time to stop. I don't go to bed at night all upset
that someone didn't agree with me. If it weren't for the folks on the other
side of an issue, we'd have no discussions at all. I'm trying to contribute
something here. On this thread we are discussing the effects and benefits
of added mass on mouthpieces. Your off topic rants are becoming quite
distracting. You should really stop following me from one thread to the
next in order to continue arguing some debate that ended days ago.

I sicerely mean it when I say I have no problem with you. I'll shake your
hand and we will call it a draw, but please leave me alone now. I'm still...

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR
_________________
7 Monettes, 9 Taylors, 8 Courtois, 8 Stomvis
7 Lawlers, 4 Leblancs, 3 Bessons, 3 Kanstuls
2 Blackburns, 9 Schilkes, 8 Bachs, 5 Selmers
8 Yamahas, 5 Committees, 2 Edwards Gen X
4 Marcinkeiwicz, 9 Harrelsons, and 4 Eclipses

[marty_seshul]

When I first discovered megatones, just heavier mouthpieces in general, I was immediately obsessed. I really liked how it changed my sound and made it soo much more better and I could play so much better too...or so I thought.
I have become much more experienced at analyzing tone since then. Heavy mouthpieces increase stability and decrease flexibility. I find that heavy mpcs tend to lock in on a note and then, when lip slurring, lock into the next one with slight difficulty but tone wise it is a bit better than light weight pieces. With light pieces I find that it is easier to bend the pitch slightly before hitting the next partial.
I used to only use heavy mpcs but after getting annoyed with the way they played when I was playing more fast, jivy, jazz solos I found that light weights are better off for me. I switched to a lighter piece and now I really like how I can flip notes and lip trill easier in those bebopish times. I still use my heavy piece for legit work though because I like the more solid sound I get and i like the way it slots.

It depends on your preferences and your style of playing.
_________________
Kanstul/Besson Meha, serial 440
Kanstul MB4 (1 1/2 B) mpc
Kanstul MB4L Prana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
King student model
7, 5, mega5, 3, mega 3, C

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

Hi Marty,

I think you really hit the nail on the head with that one. That mass does
increase projection and slotting. But for most everything good we get a
little downside too. Improved slotting usually means decreased flexibility.

I play really heavy horns all the time. It seems like the heavy horns
almost demand we use a heavy mouthpiece, and the loss in flexibility
is much less when a heavy mouthpiece is used on a heavy horn.

For almost everything regarding trumpet equipement there seems to
be a bit of a give and take. It not really all that surprising I guess, I
liked your input that some may find it helps their legit work, but they
may find it easier to do some of those jazz techniques such as flips
and lip trills on a lighter piece. Food for thought...

Thanks for helping! A very informative and educational post! That'll give
some people something to think about, me included. Added mass maybe
better for legit, maybe not so good for jazz. This is the kind of posts we
need. I am so sorry for those posts I was involved in above, what a big
waste of time! (Sorry guys.) But way to go Marty! Very helpful...

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR

[tptguy]

<<Improved slotting usually means decreased flexibility. >>

This is a pinch off track, but it was brought up and had me thinkin'. Should JC's statement read ALWAYS decrease flexibility? Aren't locking in on slots always opposite flexibility? Is there a situation where they aren't opposites? Best regards, Kyle

(I can start another thread if people think this needs one.)

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

The truth is... When I play my monette Ajnas, the flexibility is not hurt in
the least bit that I can tell. Taylors, slightly, but Ajnas not at all. I haven't
got the slightest idea why, but I know its true. Also for me, I can now use
the very heavy mouthpieces like the STC3's on any horn, and I can only
sense the slightest loss of flexibility. After another year or so I probably
won't feel any difference at all. Uthers have told me to expect this too. I
keep feeling less and less difference since I started using them, so I bet
it really will become imperceptible. Hope this helps someone out there...

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR

[John Mohan]

[_Old_mod_account]

We have a good discussion going on here. But lets tone it down a bit. In this moderator's opinon, it's starting to get a bit too personal and a bit uncivil. Please, lets be sure to treat each other with respect -- especially when we disagree.
_________________
This profile is used by all web site moderators.

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

Actually, no John. Just a few posts above I say to London that the
guys on the other side of an issue help to contribute. This is what
makes enlightening debate possible. In a strange kind of way, folks
such as yourself help to bring out the truth almost as much as the
people who know better. I've said this many times!

Your suggestions that these experiences are "just in our minds" help
reveal what kind of a person these opinions are really coming from.

Like yourself, Herseth and Sandoval need no help from any kind of
equipement at all. From most accounts, Sandoval can make a Conn
Director sound amazing. I don't believe any of the gentlemaen you
mentioned need any help from a heavy mouthpiece. In fact, you are
so good at compensating for all the deficiencies that every trumpet
has, that you obviously no longer even perceive any kind of benefits
from weighted mouthpieces at all.

For someone at your level, the heavy weight mouthpieces might be
thought of as a crutch. (Maybe not the best analogy but it should do
for now.) You don't need this crutch, it would not help you in any way,
it would possibly even hinder your performance. But to think that a
crutch of this nature cannot help anyone at all, just because it does
not help you is, to be frank, quite irrational.

While Herseth or Sandoval may not use or derive any benefit from
the heavily weighted mouthpieces, where do they claim that these
mouthpieces have no effect on how trumpets play? Everyone knows
they effect the accoustics of the trumpet by helping to stabilize the
most important antinode which is located in the mouthpiece. You may
imply these gentlemen agree with you that added mass in this area
has no effect, but where did you get that from? Many don't use them
or need them. Some don't even like them. But where do these men
say they agree that weighted mouthpieces have absolutely no effect?

I would suggest that you simply admit that they obviously do have an
effect, that some prefer, and some do not. If you won't do that, please
at least point us in the right direction so we can find all this "physics,
and laws of nature" stuff you imply supports these opinions of yours.
Could you do that for us, please Sir?

I find your Copernicus analogy ironic. We are the ones trying to help
art and scienc to evolve, while it is you that attempts to hold it back.

Just where do you get your "physics, and laws of nature" stuff from,
and where do Herseth and Sandoval claim that weighted mouthpieces
have no effect on trumpet accoustics? Please help us to see that you
really are correct, and I will be the first to make my public apologies.
This will be my last post on this thread, as I think the truth has been
adequately exposed. Mr. JM, repectfully, the last word goes to you...

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR
_________________
7 Monettes, 9 Taylors, 8 Courtois, 8 Stomvis
7 Lawlers, 4 Leblancs, 3 Bessons, 3 Kanstuls
2 Blackburns, 9 Schilkes, 8 Bachs, 5 Selmers
8 Yamahas, 5 Committees, 2 Edwards Gen X
4 Marcinkeiwicz, 9 Harrelsons, and 4 Eclipses

[_dcstep]

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

DC, I find debating to be an unpleasant, but often necessary part of
the evolution of any art or science. I am not here to participate in the
kinds of chatty little off topic discussions you specialize in. It wouldn't
bother me so much, but you and you friends will go on and on for six
or eight posts at a time, mostly just promoting your upcoming festival.

I am not intimidated by potificating bags of hot air who spread false
information, as sometimes happens on these threads. I'm one of the
few that are actually here to make a significant contribution, and I'll
debate players with credentials or even a moderator, but only when
I truly believe they are wrong about something that really matters.

I admit that I am sometimes wrong, but you are twisting my meaning.
I never play devil's advocate by debating on the side of an issue that I
don't truly believe in. I do not enjoy debate, because so few are able to
engage in it without resorting to personal attacks. I do sometimes state
facts bluntly, but not because I'm condecending. I just don't waste time
mincing words and honey coating contrary opinions. You may choose to
read whatever tone you like into my posts, but the only time I ever lash
out is when I am personally attacked myself. I mean it when I say I am

Your Friend, Tom in Texas
JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR

[_dcstep]

[tpter1]

DC- Great point. I think the problem is due to this old joke about the trumpet players official greeting: "Hi. My name is Bla Blah. I'm better than you".

I think both JPC and Jon Mohan make good points as well. The truth of the matter may well be in the middle, as it so often is.

Having never tried attaching gadgets to my own equipment other than a valve cover to protect it, I don't know anything about their effect. I do use a 1c that I've had since college, and found that when I mistakenly put the wrong mouthpiece in for a rehearsal there was a huge difference. Same with when I changed horns and bought my latest Bb.

I love science...it answers many questions; but it also raises more for each question answered. So goes all branches of science, physics included. But, physics is also consistent. Much like math. The one constant here is that all people are built differently, all have different approaches to the horn, and some have expected outcomes from expensive equipment that may actually have caused the perception that a desired result has taken place. (Is it me or was that confusing? )

In the end what matters most is how we sound, how we treat others, and whether or not we can handle disagreement without feeling as though we've been "flamed". This is not and should not be a personal issue. However, trumpet players being what we are, (which is human, and with fragile egoes, some more than others, yes, but all fragile anyway), disagreement on something we feel so strongly about is percieved to be a personal attack.

There is some important information here...healthy dialogue will help those of us who want to know more about this issue make informed decisions.