Jerry Coker's Minor II V I theory

[SPITTY]

Hi Folks,

Do any of you improvisors use Jerry Coker's theory and method when soloing over a minor II V I progression? Do you find it helpful? If yes to these questions, do you use this concept exclusively or almost exclusively when soloing over this progression?

For those of you not familiar - Coker has a system in which you use a scale from melodic minor harmony that relates to the II chord and then you get the alternate roots for the V and I by building a minor triad on your starting note for the II. Sounds a bit complex but when digested and practiced it simplifies things greatly when approaching this chord progression.

All of it is explained in his book "Clear Solutions for Improvisers"

Thanks,
Spitty

[PRogers]

Using the melodic minor of the ii wouldn't work so well I don't think. For instance in the key of C-, using D melodic minor would give you D E F G A Bb C# D. The E clearly wouldn't sound good, and the C# doesn't sound so hot either, since the b9 is usually used over dominant or major chords anyway.

I do like to use the melodic minor of the i chord though, since it gives you the b9 of the V7+9 chord, and the 5 of the ii chord, plus it is a generally cool sound.

I'm probably interpreting your post wrong though.

[Brlee2003]

Yes, my Jazz Improv class uses Coker's book. It is helpful in learning how to "plug in" patterns with different ii V chords. So far we've been working on digital patterns and implementing them into different tunes. Pretty basic but it does help.

[SPITTY]

Hi PRogers,

Yeah you aren't interpreting it correctly. Let me try to explain (to clear it up in my head too!):

If you have a II V I in C-, on the II half diminished chord you pick a scale that relates to it from the melodic minor pool, so let's say you pick the F melodic minor (which relates to D half diminished), you then build a hypothetical minor triad starting on F (giving you F - Ab - C) and this gives you the starting notes for melodic minor scales that relate to the V chord and the I chord.

Cheers,
Jason AKA Spitty

[Mr.Hollywood]

If you've got Dm7 to G7 to C the simple thing to do is just think of that as one key (C) and use your ears.


Chris

[mateoshaw]

Hey Spitty,

I've heard it explained that way, but I didn't know it was Jerry Coker's concept; but it makes sense on the dominant #9 to use the melodic minor a half step up, giving you the "altered scale/ ionian #1/ diminished whole tone" sound. I've been messing around with upper structure triads based on that relationship, so...

G7- Ab melodic minor, Eb and Db major triads

then you can alternate this with the inside sounding triads, G and F major (on the same G7). I'm finding the triads give you a cleaner sound than running scales if you're trying to slip in and out of the harmony.

I just found out Gary Campbell (who wrote a book on all this stuff), lives in Miami, time to go get a lesson!

Peace
Matt

[SPITTY]

HI MR. HOLLYWOOD,

we are discussing MINOR II V I progressions not major.

Mateo - this concept is in Jerry Coker's book - I don't know if he originated it or not. Also it is not about running scales or slipping in and out of the harmony at all. Check out my additional description or better yet check out Coker's book "Clear Solutions . . ."

The concept is really about using one TYPE of scale (or pool of notes) for the three chords, simplifying playing through the progression, and getting away from root based improvisation, so you are free to create provoking solos.

Cheers,
Spitty

[mateoshaw]

Spitty,

Right... I was just elaborating. I'm familiar with the concept and the "sound", just throwing out some other options derived from it. I started noticing the upper structure triads in piano voicings. Greg Gisbert hipped me to the triad sounds, and I derived it from the same relationships you're talking about. Whatever sounds good and makes music right?

Although it's a little off topic, I also really like playing the melodic minor derived from the 6 on major chords. Ex) A melodic minor on C major.
Try it out and let me know what you think.

Peace
Matt

[PhxHorn]

I've not heard of this triad stuff. The hippest thing I know is using the diminished scale over the V7 chord. In the case of G7, that would be
C# B Bb Ab G F E D. That scale covers the b5, 3, #9, b9, root, 7, 6, and 5. That's about as deep as I get. Not very, I know.

[Mr.Hollywood]

[mateoshaw]

If I'm jumping all over this forum, sorry, but I think it's fun to talk about this stuff even if my playing doesn't necessarily reflect all this intellectual discussion.

There are great books out by Gary Campbell and Walt Weiskopf on triad pairs that I think are worth checking out.

So on a chord you would think of the parent scale and then the derived fifth and fourth major triad. So G7 is the five of C major right? So you would use G triad and F. So using this melodic minor stuff:

Emin7b5- G melodic minor- D maj triad (b7, 9, 11) and C (b13, 1, b3)
A7 alt - Bb melodic minor- F maj triad (#5, 1, #9) and Eb (#11, b7, b9)

Like I posted above, the melodic minor stuff made more sense to me when I saw it in the context of piano voicings and the ones I was learning usually had the fifth derived triad on top of the voicing.

Of course, playing the altered scale doesn't outline the intended "sound" of all altered dominant chords. I think there was a thread on that a few months ago. Phxhorn, I also like using the diminished sound.

Although I have some work to do with it, I like the triad stuff because it's a real clear way of stating what you're doing harmonically, plus it opens you up to thinking less linear. Also, although I'm really intellectualizing (is that a word?) it, there are so many possibilities of triads, scales, color tones, etc... that make things sound pretty.

Peace,

Mateo