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Joyride17 New Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2004 Posts: 1
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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Are the Schilke 14a4a and 15a4a comparable mouthpieces, and is the 15a4a good for all around? The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc. and I would like to know if the 15 could be substituted |
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littledoc0079 Regular Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2004 Posts: 86 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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The shallow "a" cup and "a" backbore on both of these mouthpieces are capable of aiding in the upper register. However, the down side is the fact that tone quality, intonation, etc usually suffer and the lower register tends to literally disappear! If you just have to use one of these pea shooter mouthpieces, as I call them, I suggest that you try the more open and free blowing "c" backbore in either mouthpiece (14A4 or 15A4). The "c" backbores sound better and play with much less resistance than the "a" backbore.
Richard |
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Martin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 1168 Location: Vienna/Austria
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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Joyride17 wrote: |
The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc.
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No it´s not. That´s a pretty popular misconception. It might be popular with some wannabe screamers in high school jazz ensembles, but I´ve never seen a pro jazz player using one.
Rant over.
dbacon, where are you? _________________ All the best
Martin
_____________________________________________________________________
"I have found that it is enough when a single note is beautifully played." - Arvo Pärt |
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_Don Herman 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3344 Location: Monument, CO, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:27 am Post subject: |
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The 14A4a is an "artist" model and so varies just a little from the 15A4a in other than just the rim diameter. See the Schilke Loyalist site, Schilke site, Kanstul mpc comparator (I assume -- didn't check), etc.
I would not use either for jazz; maybe for lead, though they're a bit too shallow, tight, and bright for me.
For jazz, if you need upper register support, I'd try a 14B (or 15B) instead.
Choose a mpc that enables you to get the sound you want, over the range you need it.
HTH, IMHO, YMMV, etc. - Don _________________ Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley |
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hsa-arch Regular Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 22 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I've been using the 15A4a for a while playing the lead book in a big band and it seems to be alright sounding throughout the entire range for that situation. I haven't lost any low range tone that I'm aware of although I don't get a chance to listen to me from the audience. The 14A4a is almost unplayable for me.. I don't know why... My point is, a lot of people feel the need to impose what works or doesn't work for them on others. Try a bunch of pieces and don't fall into the gimmick thing. You may be surprised to find out your range and tone is better with a much different mouthpiece then you anticipated. |
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OCTA-C Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2001 Posts: 759 Location: Kenmore, N.Y.
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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My son has been using the 15B and is very pleased with it. He gets a great sound with it with no loss of lower or upper register and beautiful tone. JMO |
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Bapman Regular Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2007 Posts: 28 Location: illinois usa
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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Martin wrote: | Joyride17 wrote: |
The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc.
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No it�s not. That�s a pretty popular misconception. It might be popular with some wannabe screamers in high school jazz ensembles, but I�ve never seen a pro jazz player using one.
Rant over.
dbacon, where are you? |
So ... Forrest Buchtel , Al Vizzuti , Manny Klein ,Jay Solenberger , Bobby Shew , All of whom have used the 14a4a are a bunch of Wannabe's ??
Maybe you should look in the mirror... |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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Bapman wrote: | Martin wrote: | Joyride17 wrote: |
The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc.
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No it�s not. That�s a pretty popular misconception. It might be popular with some wannabe screamers in high school jazz ensembles, but I�ve never seen a pro jazz player using one.
Rant over.
dbacon, where are you? |
So ... Forrest Buchtel , Al Vizzuti , Manny Klein ,Jay Solenberger , Bobby Shew , All of whom have used the 14a4a are a bunch of Wannabe's ??
Maybe you should look in the mirror... |
From what I can see the Schilke a4A pieces are so specialized that only a small percentage of players really do well on them. That Vizzutti can play such shallow pieces and still produce a sound suitable for an orchestra is extraordinarily rare. Shews Jazz piece is much deeper. The Shew Lead piece may compare to the a4A but even for him it's a one trick pony. The time I saw him live he was killing it, playing into the stratosphere on his Jazz piece. the only time we switched to the Lead for an extended screech solo, when it was over he switched right back to the more moderate Jazz mouthpiece.
I don't take issue with the players that make these shallow pieces sing. But I can appreciate the cynicism of those who rail against the players who insist on using them even when their tone and technique suffer.
Know that I spent a lot of years on a piece even more notorious than the Schilke a4A, the cupless JetTone MF. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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Bapman wrote: | Martin wrote: | Joyride17 wrote: |
The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc.
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No it�s not. That�s a pretty popular misconception. It might be popular with some wannabe screamers in high school jazz ensembles, but I�ve never seen a pro jazz player using one.
Rant over.
dbacon, where are you? |
So ... Forrest Buchtel , Al Vizzuti , Manny Klein ,Jay Solenberger , Bobby Shew , All of whom have used the 14a4a are a bunch of Wannabe's ??
Maybe you should look in the mirror... |
You drug up a 14 year old thread for that? Geez... _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Goldplate Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 152
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I hope over the course of 14 years, Joyride17 tried the mouthpieces for himself. |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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BTW the 14A4a and 15A4a are different in much more than diameter. They have very different rims. The 14A4a has a rounder rim with a softer bite. The 15A4a has a flatter rim and sharper bite (although still soft compared to others). The 15A4a is has the deepest of all the A4a cups and it is easier to get a legit tone out of than the others. In rim shape, it is more similar to the 12A4a. My comments are based on examples that I own. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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Bapman wrote: | Martin wrote: | Joyride17 wrote: |
The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc.
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No it�s not. That�s a pretty popular misconception. It might be popular with some wannabe screamers in high school jazz ensembles, but I�ve never seen a pro jazz player using one.
Rant over.
dbacon, where are you? |
So ... Forrest Buchtel , Al Vizzuti , Manny Klein ,Jay Solenberger , Bobby Shew , All of whom have used the 14a4a are a bunch of Wannabe's ??
Maybe you should look in the mirror... |
Do you realize you brought a 14 year old thread back to life to take somebody to task who hasn't even posted on the Trumpet Herald in 9 years?
I agree with Martin. Like him, I've never seen a professional player using a 14A4A, and I played for a living for decades on two different continents. Yes, Forrest Buchtel used one (it was a design made for him) and AFTER he retired, Mannie Klein noodled around on one. But very few players can play the 14A4A (mainly due to its radically high alpha angle coming off the rim in my opinion).
Back when the in-house Kanstul Comparator had the Reeves and Purviance models available to compare, it was clear to see that the 14A4A is based on the famous Purviance 4*K4, but with a much higher alpha angle, and a smaller throat and tiny backbore. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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John Mohan wrote: | Bapman wrote: | Martin wrote: | Joyride17 wrote: |
The 14a4a is pretty popular for jazz, etc.
|
No it�s not. That�s a pretty popular misconception. It might be popular with some wannabe screamers in high school jazz ensembles, but I�ve never seen a pro jazz player using one.
Rant over.
dbacon, where are you? |
So ... Forrest Buchtel , Al Vizzuti , Manny Klein ,Jay Solenberger , Bobby Shew , All of whom have used the 14a4a are a bunch of Wannabe's ??
Maybe you should look in the mirror... |
Do you realize you brought a 14 year old thread back to life to take somebody to task who hasn't even posted on the Trumpet Herald in 9 years?
I agree with Martin. Like him, I've never seen a professional player using a 14A4A, and I played for a living for decades on two different continents. Yes, Forrest Buchtel used one (it was a design made for him) and AFTER he retired, Mannie Klein noodled around on one. But very few players can play the 14A4A (mainly due to its radically high alpha angle coming off the rim in my opinion).
Back when the in-house Kanstul Comparator had the Reeves and Purviance models available to compare, it was clear to see that the 14A4A is based on the famous Purviance 4*K4, but with a much higher alpha angle, and a smaller throat and tiny backbore. |
When I was at the Navy School of Music, you played a 13A4a or a 14A4a. No choice, unless you played a Bach 1C. Very few complained about this at all, and we all managed to get good sounds. So your statement that "very few players can play the 14A4a" is just not true. Maybe you haven't seen it, but ... _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Schilke 14A4a is a mpc that is made for a well trained commercial trumpet player with "road chops " , Forrest Buchtel had to travel all day and plays two shows the nite for long periods that's why he change his Purviance 4*K4 with the 14A4a (dear John both mpc's have the same #27 bore) becose he needed a tighter bbore to support his lips in those terrible periods and I am sure that many of you now what I mean .
For sure is not recommended for starters or high school kids .
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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Type3B Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2016 Posts: 108 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:02 am Post subject: |
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I've played the 12A4a, 13A4a, 14A4a, and 15A4a, and found the 15 to be the most comfortable and easiest blowing--FOR ME. However, I find the Schilke A cup too shallow, so I asked K.O. Skinsnes at Stomvi for something close to the 15 but with a little more room in the cup. Stomvi makes a series based on Schilke rim sizes, and he directed me to a Flex S14A VR Vs, and that's worked well for me and it's where I've planted the flag. _________________ 2006 Buick Lucerne |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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dershem wrote: | When I was at the Navy School of Music, you played a 13A4a or a 14A4a. No choice, unless you played a Bach 1C. Very few complained about this at all, and we all managed to get good sounds. So your statement that "very few players can play the 14A4a" is just not true. Maybe you haven't seen it, but ... |
The percentage of players that make the Schilke A cups sound really good in my experience is quite small. I've known a couple. The percentage of players who think they make the Schilke A cup sound really good is somewhat higher.
Full disclosure, starting in high school I played for way too many years on a JetTone MF2, the one with no discernable cup. When I decided to upsize I moved to a Schilke 6A4a for a few years. I stuck with the shallow Schilke pieces until finally got frustrated enough to set them aside along with my large bore Holton ST-302 MF Horn. I went out a rented a student model horn with a 7C and started over. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9030 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: |
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What was the geneses of the 14A4A's mystique in the first place? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:08 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | What was the geneses of the 14A4A's mystique in the first place? |
As is standard with the "a4a" line, it was originally a custom - in the case of the 14a4a, for Forrest Buchtel... designed for playing above the staff for prolonged periods, which it's great for (if it suits you, which it may well not). |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Schilke 15A4A vs. 14A4a |
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cheiden wrote: |
The percentage of players that make the Schilke A cups sound really good in my experience is quite small. I've known a couple. The percentage of players who think they make the Schilke A cup sound really good is somewhat higher. |
Agreed - lots of people think they play great and sound great on the "a4a" pieces, but not many of them really do.
It's specialized equipment... and like any specialized equipment, it's absolutely critical that it's a good match for you |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 13A4a that I briefly used on lead in a big band. I had the throat enlarged slightly (which helped intonation a bit), but it was still way too tight. It's been in a box for the last 20 years or so...
I had better luck with an 8A4, but haven't used it in a number of years now, either. If I want a bit more ease in the upper register (and I'm no high-note jockey), now I use a Curry 3M. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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