The Kanstul Brass Mouthpiece Comparator

John Mohan · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 3:00 am Post subject:

For those of you who don't know it, Kanstul Brass has something they call their "Mouthpiece Comparator" on their website.

You can use it to over-lay and compare digitized mouthpiece scans of all the Bach, all the Schilke, Purvience, Warburton, CG Personal, and other mouthpieces to each other.

I think you might be surprized at the actual sizes and measurements of these different mouthpieces, especially the contrast between the actual sizes and the published sizes of various mouthpieces. For instance, although the Schilke Catalog states that the 14A4A has a slightly bigger diameter than the 14 (published sizes: 14's cup inner diameter supposedly 17mm and 14A4A inner cup diameter is supposedly 17.05mm), when you compare scans of these, you find that the 14A4A in addition to being much shallower (no surprise there), is also a smaller diameter mouthpiece that the 14!

Here is the website address:

http://www.kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare/CompareIE.HTM

All for now,

John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
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Wtrager · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:35 am Post subject:

John,
You'll notice the same is true with the Bach mouthpiece scans. Compare the Bach mt.vernon 3C to the mt vernon 7C - Now that's pretty eye-opening!
Sincerely
Wayne
http://communities.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk

Wtrager · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:44 am Post subject:

Sorry, I was too fast on the "post reply" button. You'll notice that the Bach Mt.Vernon 5C is (according to the scan) , is larger than the Bach 3C, and accept for the "alpha angle being different on the 3C (which does contribute slightly to the overall volume of the mouthpiece), technically the 7C "appears to be" larger than the 3C.
Sincerely,
Wayne
http://communities.msn.com/TragerTrumpetTalk

_Japle · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 6:57 am Post subject:

Yeah, it's a very interesting program. I'm amazed at the difference between the Bach 7C, Mt Vernon 7C and NY 7C. The 1 1/2C and 3C are almost identical.
The different rim designs are unbelievable. Bach calls the 7CW a "cushion" rim! Looks more like a cookie cutter.
John

_Don Herman · Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2001 9:47 pm Post subject:

Yeah, the compator's a great way to blow _far_ too much practice time!

FWIW, the Schilke 14A4A is an "artist" model and so follows their normal convention only in that the starting point and rough dimensions are the same. Check out the Schilke catalog (it's on line now) for a listing and description, plus of course the Schilke Loyalist site. Generally, you'll find the Schilke numbering system makes a lot more sense, and their mpcs follow it more closely, than Bach -- by a long shot! Of course, I play a Bach 1B, Schilke 14/14B/14B4x, a bunch of Flip Oakes' mpcs, a Marcinkiewitz, etc. so i never know what's going to fall into my hand when I open the case anyway!

Toodles - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

John Mohan · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:50 am Post subject:

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

John Mohan · Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:10 am Post subject:

_Don Herman · Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:11 am Post subject:

Hi y'all,

Sorry for the delay -- too much to do this time of year!

Re. the 14A4a, I'd suggest dropping a note to Jim Donaldson or Schilke direct for the _real_ word. My comment, from a fading memory (aren't they all?) of trying a 14A4a in comparison to my 14B about two years ago, is that the 14A4a had a slightly sharper inner edge and perhaps broader rim (cain't say fer shur). This may account for the smaller diameter. And, it may simply have a smaller diameter outright, since it was tweaked (for ??? I forgot who this was developed for...) Where on the rim the measurement is made varies, and for more rounded rims like Schilkes' it can make comparisons difficult. The 14A4a was too shallow for me, and I also liked the 14B rim better (don't ask me why). N.B. This was for my Bb, not my pic (which I didn't yet have at that time).

I think it's important for people to try mpcs and see what fits them best. The catch is, it may take a week or more before really settling into a new mpc so a short trial at the store (or overnight trial period) may not be good enough. The upside is, it results in lots of cheap nearly-new mouthpieces for us to try!

Onwards, I reckon - Don

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Don Herman/Monument, CO

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2001-12-18 11:13 ]

trumpetmagic · Regular Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 23

I like Kanstul mouthpiece comparator.
I would be happier if it could give the whole shape of the tops. It only gives the rim and the slope of cup.

I bought 3 Warbuton copies (W series) a few months ago. They sounded a bit different than the original Warburton MP.

I think the difference in weight made the small difference if the rim and the cup slope are the same.

The total cup shape, the weight, or metal volume may give additional insights before purchase.

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-11-22 16:47 ]

Martin · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2002 7:38 am Post subject:

Just wondering:
Below the CG models, they list a G1 and a G2. What does that stand for? The G1 looks particulary funky.

John Mohan · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2002 4:23 am Post subject:

trickg · Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2002 6:48 am Post subject:

Here's an interesting comparison. The Schilke 6A4 is smaller than the 5A4. Then again, wasn't the 6A4a designed specifically for Bill Chase? I know that the 14A4a was origianally an artist signature piece, or at least it was designed for a specific lead player, I just can't remember who it was.

It will be nice when they have the comprehensive list of makers and sizes available on the web site. I'd like to see just where I've been and where I'm going. I've only made a few MP changes in the 20 years that I've been playing so it would be neat to track it to see just what changes I made. The silliest thing I've done was as a Sophomore in HS, I played perfectly well on my Bach 7C and changed because I thought that it was the thing to do. I had a heck of a time adjusting but so started my 14 year relationship with Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

Strawdoggy · Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:02 am Post subject:

John,

I see you have played CG personal. What is your take on the CG 3? I have it on loan for a week and really like it. The personal looks like it has more of a V cup. I might try that one, too.

Steve

pair of kings · Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:30 pm Post subject:

Steve,
Saw your posts. I have a CG personal on order. What mouthpiece do you use on the flugel?
PC

Strawdoggy · Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2002 5:24 am Post subject:

PC,

I like the Username - how fitting! I am using the Bach 3C FLugel. It didn't seem to want to go into the shank fully. I got the flugel out and played it a little. I put on an Aebersold CD to mess around, and could not bring it up to pitch. I love the way the horn sounds, though.

I have been playing the CG3 all this week. Played it with Buzz's G'burg band last night. It is nice. Pretty bright. I was thinking about the CG Personal to see how much it mellowed things out.

I will see you tonight at the gig with all of your horns.

Steve

trumpetmagic · Regular Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 23

I noticed that the comparator indicated that Schilke 9 was bigger than Schilke 11. Isn't this a mistake?

Ken

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetmagic on 2002-02-21 10:39 ]

Mark Bradley · Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:23 am Post subject:

Incidentally, the mouthpieces Kanstul makes are very, very good. The problem I see with them is overload. If you've ever seen their exhibit with the virtually hundreds of different combinations, it sort of leaves you standing there with your jaw open, not knowing where to start. One might ask, why get a Kanstul exact copy of your favorite Shilke, Warburton, etc. when you can just by the origianal? The difference is, you can match a cup and shank between any two companies. You could put a Bach 1 1/2C cup on a Schilke shank (bore), for example. Plus, they have copies of older stuff that isn't available, like the old Bach sizes (although Curry has some of that too). You know that somewhere among all these choices lies the perfect mouthpiece, but unless you can take a lot of time at a Kanstul exhibit or the store itself and try any number of different combinations you are otherwise making a gamble as to whether your mouthpiece match of your dreams will work out.

Also, the price of Kanstul mouthpieces are high-- about $100 I believe, but you can order them for a substantial discount through places like Chuck Levin's Washington Music. Maybe it's just overload with so many mouthpiece makers available, but I'm surprised that Kanstul mouthpieces aren't more widely used; they really are excellent-- if you know what it is exactly you're looking for.

Cozy · Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:47 pm Post subject:

trickg said, "Here's an interesting comparison. The Schilke 6A4 is smaller than the 5A4. Then again, wasn't the 6A4a designed specifically for Bill Chase?"
Right on, trickg. The 6A4a was a custom for Bill Chase when he decided to venture from his Jet Tones. From my collected data: "In the '50's Chase used a Giardinelli, from 1960 thru 1971 he used custom Jet-Tone models the BCB & BC. The BCB had a small shallow cup & rim, tight 28 throat. The BC model had a deeper cup. Late in '71, Renold Schilke developed the Schilke Chase (6A4a) model for him based on the Jet-Tone BCB model, but with a more defined cushion #4 rim, 27 throat, and tight A backbore."
trickg, Thanks for educating me: The 6A4(a) is smaller than the 5A4?! Schilke states the 5A4 is more for picc. Wow! I knew my 6A4a was small, but smaller than a 5A4?! As if I didn't have enough to take me from practice...I'm gonna avoid that Kanstul Comparator for at a bit. Gotta go practice my "Kanstul"-origin tpt.

Cozy
http://www.cozychops.com