Where has the craftsmanship gone?

[bandman322]

Before you read this post, please understand that I am one player, with one opinion, and if your opinion differs from mine, that’s okay -- we’ll just need to agree to disagree.

I have been playing the trumpet since 1966, and have been a band director since 1980. In all of those years I have played more trumpets than I would like to think about (which means I’m getting old). With the exception of the very top lines, and of course the super horns, the consistency and craftsmanship we took for granted at one time no longer exists.

At one time you could pick up 20 Bach trumpets, 20 Benge Trumpets, 20 Schilke trumpets, 20 Conn Constellation Trumpets, and 20 top line King Trumpets, and out of that 100 horns you would have less than 5 horns that did not play up to normal expectations. I’m not saying that they were all great, but I will say that they almost all played well enough for the average player.

Now days I find that since all of the mergers, and buy outs, and of course the birth of some new economy lines, the overall craftsmanship is no longer there. We have production line horns that are just plain bad that sell from $800 to $3000. I always thought the concept of a production line was to make something perfect, and then remove human error from the equation. This should mean that almost every horn should be near perfect. Then a craftsman only needs to check the horn and tweak it for minor imperfections.

I thank God everyday that I have been fortunate enough to own some very fine instruments in my lifetime. I look back and think about the fact that even my first horn was a pretty decent little trumpet. Without saying the name of the brands, I ask all of my students today to start on one brand of instrument (which differs from instrument to instrument through out the band) because I do find some brands are more consistent (notice I said more, not that they are good all the time). I feel sorry for kids who come from schools that allow them to buy “any brand”, and feel even more sorry for kids who need to play on the Chinese horns in order to afford being in the band. I’d rather a student play on a used $100 E-bay horn than play on a new economy line. Even better. let him play baritone or tuba and use a school horn. At least he/she gets to be in the band!

I also am thankful for the true craftsmen that we discuss everyday on this forum. We argue over which is better, Callichio, Callet, Bach, Zeus, Monette, Schilke, Yamaha, Harrelson and others. I thank God I have the money to buy from those lines, Unfortunately, even some of those companies no longer have hand crafted horns, and they are moving into the realm of “inferior instruments”. It’s truly a shame when you can spend $2K on a horn and get an inferior quality instrument. Next time you are upset with your inferior quality $2K horn, stop and think about the quality our beginner players are getting for $800.

Enough of my rant, I guess you get my point.
_________________
C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37

"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie

[hilgenboogie]

Hi bandman, I hear what you're saying. But consider this: we're living in a world now that, for the most part, doesn't need the trumpet like it used to. Now, egos aside (I know you and I need the trumpet) let's look at what I just said.
You talked about the quality of horns from 1966-1980 as being better than today's. Well, in a TV commercial or movie in 1966-1980 you would hear plenty of trumpets screaming away to sell you Brillo, or Coke, or whatever. They'd also be screaming away behind a Jamed Bond fight-in-a-helicopter scene, or a great car chase. The fact is, back then, trumpets were used much much more than they are today. Nowadays, everybody writes music for TV with a MIDI keyboard and a computer. That's just the way it's done. So companies that made great instruments then are either doing electronics now, like Yamaha, or have gone the way of the dodo. Less demand for trumpet players means less demand for trumpets.
Same thing with the music scene. How many albums these days are made with all acoustic instruments? Not many. I've really delighted to see recent Saturday Night Live appearances by Queen Latifah and Justin Timberlake where they used live horn sections, but this is a rare thing these days. Less demand, less horn players, less horns.
I think a lot of the old horn companies that still want to make horns are beefing up their student lines. Look at Bach, Selmer, UMI, whatever you want to call them. It seems like making more instruments for less quality seems to make them more money. I even heard a rumor Bach was going to start making all their horns in Taiwan, now (unconfirmed, so please no flaming.)
So I guess my point here is that trumpet players are becoming specialists these days. It's harder and harder to make a living doing it. I pride myself on the fact that I can, but I have to work very hard at it. And since the players are specialists, it means their equipment has to be made by specialists, too. Less demand = lower quality or higher prices for good quality. Which would you chose? I have an amazing Bach from 1981 that I found on Dillon's wall for $600! And I also play a Callet Jazz. Both to me are super horns for different reasons, and very different prices. But also consider that, compared to other instruments, even the most expensive trumpets are still cheap!

Matt

[RichN]

Another thing to bear in mind is that production lines can actually be a very bad thing if set up badly. Low volume manufacturers will use a very small number of very highly skilled people building trumpets suited to that kind of manufacture. Doing a good job of turning that into a high volume production line means changes to the design, changes to the tooling, less control over the skills of the workforce and lots of other difficult issues. It's a very difficult thing to do, very complex, endless pitfalls, and needs expertise that the original 'craft' trumpet designer / builder probably doesn't have.

Actually, the craftsmanship is still there, but is now all about designing a trumpet and production process that complement each other and work well and less about actually putting the trumpet together. You could go to the extremes of automation - I can't think of a single part of the trumet that couldn't be manufactured in an automated process of some sort, but the technology required would probably make it completely uneconomic.

Rich.

[tptptp]

What? No more dodo? Darn hunters.
I'm afraid you are right. No more live bands anywhere on TV, except the academy awards, and even then, hidden, and ever aborted. ONE trumpet in the Tonight Show "Orchestra". Yikes! Beam me back, Scottie! I picked trumpet in the early 60s because WOW--there was Doc wailing and loving it every night; Satchmo and Al Hirt were frequent guests on the numerous variety shows, and Al even had his own; Lawrence Welk, Les Brown, etc, etc. Great music everywhere you looked. Music you could see as well as hear. How do you stimulate a kid now? There is basketball and there are sexy "vocalists" for kids to emulate, but no visible trumpets. I'll bet more people can draw Janet Jackson's breast medalion than they can a trumpet. A while back, I went to a show at the Fox in Atlanta, and it had live music---via three keyboardists!! I think I'm gonna cry.
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Craig Mitchell

[trumpetmike]

This lack of live trumpet playing is a disgrace. I recently visited Liverpool and was able to see a Beatles tribute band play in the Cavern Club (where it all started). The band were not the greatest band ever, but they did a reasonable job. However... they played Penny Lane.
There was no trumpeter on stage.
There were two in the audience (I was there with another one).
We didn't get asked to play.
A keyboard player attempted the solo.
They completely stuffed it up!
And then the "swine" (not actually what I called him at the time, but hey, this is a family forum!) got a special mention for his trumpet playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[2ndchair]

I had a horn built in the middle 70's by a very colorful man who made very cool trumpets out west. I watched him fiddle with a bell to leadpipe brace for about an hour and discard it saying" that one will never be what I want it to be". OK that's not exactly what he said but it is a PG audience........

At a factory the builders have to turn out enough units to make their pay and show a profit at the end of the year. That is the imperative that drives their company. The kind of attention to detail mentioned above would be a serious production problem.

As consumers we insist on the lowest price consistent with acceptable quality so that's what we get. Sorry but 30 plus years fixing and selling horns has demonstrated that reality time and time again.

So quality will suffer as we demand low price and improve (usually) as we pay for the higher standard.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Check out Roy Lawler's new model T. A great builder making a terrific horn for the street price of a new factory made pro horn.

Played a new Getzen lately? Dang these horns are very consistent, play like crazy and are certainly competitively priced.

Try a group of new Bach or Yamaha trumpets and there are some jewels to be found in every store.

Schilkes still have a fit, finish and playability that is amazing.

The super horns are out there for the demanding among us and fetch a price that reflects the time and effort spent perfecting one builders vision of greatness.

I tried out 11 new Bach Bb's the other day. I found 2 that were killer, 3 that were good horns. The rest weren't up to standard so I picked the one I liked and bought it.

The other day mentioned was in 1964 and the selection of Mount Vernon Bb's was as described. (Someone said "If I knew it was an era I'd have paid more attention.")

There are still a lot of great horns out there. It kind of fun looking for them really.

For what it's worth I play a '75 Calicchio, Chicago and Burbank Benges, a Schilke B1 (with Yamalloy valves) 3 terrific Severinsen Getzens, a Bel Canto, 2 Mount Vernons (one's for sale to finance my latest folly) and Conn 8B that still reminds me of high school.

Even the super horns are cheaper than Ferraris. Easier to take care of too!

[bandman322]

I noticed that most of you referenced the horns we adults use. Interesting that most of us are old enough to remember the day that even the horns for the school kids had some quality.

As for the “light at the end of the tunnel”, I'm looking for it in two directions. One is in getting my old Bach a valve job followed by gold plating. I also hope to be one of the first owners of a Harrelson Trumpet once Jason gets his line going full strength. In my conversations with him I feel his passion for trumpet playing and trumpet design. I really feel that he as a player is looking to take his instruments to the next level, and as a player he understands what many of us want in a horn.

As an interesting side note, I almost begged Jason to consider designing a beginner model trumpet in the near future. It doesn’t sound like it’s going to happen. I really have to find a better horn for my young students. They all blow the Yamaha YTR-2335S right now which is a pretty nice horn, but I know that for the dollars they spend that there has to be a “better mousetrap” somewhere. [/quote]
_________________
C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37

"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie

[radiobob]

2ndchair, why don't you just tell the folks that "very colorful man who made very cool trumpets" was Dominic Callichio? He has a cool story to go along with that too. Another cool story about a horn he built for Severinsen. (2ndchair is my trumpet instructor/repair tech). I'll let him tell his own stories though. I've had a life long love of antiques, and it's partly because the quality was much better back in the day on almost anything. Of course, cheap could be had too, but even the cheap imports of days gone by were better. I think it has a lot to do with the work ethic and pride in craftsmanship. The last few generations, of which I'm a member of one of them, just weren't raised with that in general. People used to choose a profession and stick with it, and that profession became a part of their identity. Doing their job the best they could was a point of pride. Many of the instrument makers in the first part of the century came from the old world and were carrying on a centuries old tradition. Now that's something to be proud of. That sort of worldview has all but dissappeared, and can't be had at any price anymore.

Bob

[camelbrass]

2nd chair's right.

What amazes me is that you can buy a well made trumpet from a craftsman as cheaply as you still can. I think we all need some perspective here....I need to do the indexing but I'm sure that if you look at the price of a Bach Strad in the mid 60s and indexed it to todays prices you'd get most of the younger guys go "What!!!!". In real terms these things have been getting cheaper and cheaper. Ultimately you get what you pay for.

What really spoils us is that makers like Brett, Roy, Kanstul and Schilke can provide what they provide for us players for as cheaply as they do. The craftsmanship is still there (maybe not for $400) but for $2000 there are some incredible trumpets. Perhaps an interesting comparison would be the price of Roys T series against an indexed price of the good old Ambassador in the mid 60s. Bet there would be a shock.

Just my take.

Regards,

Trevor

[veldkamp]

There are enough good custombuilders were you can buy your horn around $2K (like Lawler, Calicchio). I've played a lot of vintage horns, mostly Bach, but also a very old Calicchio, Martins etc. and couldn't find a new horn that was as good as my older horns. That is for around $2K.

But as someone said before, if you recalculate Bach's prices of the 30s, 40s you would pay something like $5K for them now...

Now I'm happy to play a new Hub van Laar, his horns are still handmade like they used to make them, but he also has the computer equipment to check things out. Bob Findley is the dealer in the US. Check his horns on the Namm in LA.

http://home.zonnet.nl/erikveldkamp/erikveldkamp-hub.html
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www.erikveldkamp.com

[camelbrass]

Actually I just did a quick reckoning on the cost of an Olds Ambassador in 1967 (taken from the Olds Central site) in 2004 $.

The cost with case was $219.50 in 1967. Using the change in the cost of living between 1967 and 2004 for Chicago I came up with $1,219. Puts the Yamaha 2335 into perspective doesn't it?

Regards,

Trevor

PS I've purposely used the cost of living index. If I'd have used the CPI the comparative would have been even more extreme.

[david johnson]

[mulligan stew]

I don't think the current state of craftsmanship is really worth lamenting. It's kind of like the old Hollywood studio system: they once ruled moviemaking, and the paradigm shifted, and now you have independent film everywhere.

There are a number of fine, small hormakers; there's Schilke, who's quality never wavers; there are even great horns coming from once-great names like Conn. I think today's player has an even better choice of fine, affordable instruments then was available when I was a kid, 35 years ago.
_________________
Scott
My trio:

https://vectortrio.bandcamp.com/

[music matters]

I play a schilke B1 and used to play a yamaha 6335HS2. I have played Eclipses, strads etc and when a new student is looking to buy a horn I recommend a Yamaha 2335 or 4335(if they can afford this much - I always encourage them to go for the 4335GS if possible).

Anyway, when their new horn arrives I always play it to check it out and I am always surprised at how well they play for student models. The 4335GS plays especially nicely and I think they are good value and well made and not that expensive. I could certainly live with it. The only problems have been with the valves sticking in the first month whilst they are bedding in. Regular cleaning and oiling has always sorted this out though. I have played a couple of Bach TR300 student models and have found them both to be terible in comparison.

Just my experience!

MM

[Getzen]

After reading some of these posts I am left feeling discouraged. The perception that this industry is being ruled by huge corporations and importers that are driving it into the gutter makes me want to scream "What about us?!". The oldest family owned company in the industry with four generations (working on five) of experience. A company that will never sell out to one of the giants or anyone else for that matter. That is, as long as I still have breath in my lungs.

To echo what a lot of others said, there are still craftsmen in this industry. There are still companies that care as much about the musician as the bottom line. And when I say musician I don't just mean the pro that can drop $2000 on a horn. Musician to me includes the true “professional”, but also the 40 year old accountant that's a weekend blower, the college student playing the halftime show on a Saturday afternoon, the teenager that picked the high school band over the choir, or the little kid picking up his new horn for the first time. Every single one of them is just as important in my eyes.

It is true that some student horns have gone down in quality over the years. The drive for profits is the cause of this. In an effort to sell to as many students as possible, student horn prices have to stay low. The only way to make a profit then is to build them cheaply. When you can't build a horn cheap enough in the states you build it overseas. Unfortunately, nobody tells a parent about the problems with some of these instruments. The dealer just says it’s a trumpet. To a parent that never played an instrument, a trumpet is a trumpet is a trumpet. Two hundred dollars looks a lot better than eight hundred to them. Unfortunately, in some cases this short changes the young student. If the horn they are playing cannot physically be played correctly they are going to suffer. It’s hard enough to keep a child interested in something, let alone when they fail at no fault of their own.

Another problem with this decline in student quality is lowered expectations. Suddenly an instrument that was sub par 20 years ago looks great when compared to some of the other garbage out there. I see this a lot these days. The common perception that a “break in” period on pistons is acceptable. The idea that a 1 year warranty is more than enough when talking about valve sections. Worst of all, the idea that a trumpet maker is still considered “quality” if you can pick one gem out of 50 of their horns. All of these misconceptions didn’t fly in the sixties, but they do now. Why? I think the big manufacturers are to blame. Automakers did the same thing for years. Ten miles to the gallon and a car that fell apart after 50,000 miles was as good as it could get according to them. Suddenly, they were forced to change their tune when the consumers revolted and started buying Japanese cars. Now anything under 30 mpg is considered poor and cars can go 100,000 mile without even having a tune up. How much longer are musicians going to accept this “good as it gets” line before they start demanding more? In the past, when there were so many competitors, you could just go elsewhere. Poor quality couldn’t be written off as standard. If a product slipped, the players went elsewhere and forced the manufacturers to improve. However, as the industry becomes more and more centralized this is going to become difficult. Going back to the auto industry, can you imagine the quality of cars if GM bought up Ford and Dodge? Things would change from a climate of consumer choice to taking whatever you could get.

So how does all of this relate to the Getzen Company? Well, first of all, we are full of craftsmen. There are people here that have worked in the industry for twenty, thirty, forty, even fifty plus years. Heck, I’m only 27 and I’ve got 16 years of experience in repairing and building brass musical instruments. Second, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we do not have an assembly line. I can’t stress this enough. Anyone that has ever toured our factory can back me up on this one and please do. The way we build a trumpet is no different than the way a small maker does. The only difference is that we just have more people doing the same jobs. Everything we make is hand made. There is only one truly automated machine in our entire factory and that’s an automatic buffing machine. It isn’t even used on any Getzen parts. Instead, we use it for buffing sousaphone tuning bits we build for Allied. In fact, with a few exceptions, we build horns the same way now that my great-grandfather did in the forties and fifties. The only manufacturing changes we have made were done to improve quality and not just profits. Take for example our heat induction machine (basically a super microwave). It’s true that it makes it possible for us to braze a piston much, much faster. However, that’s just an added bonus. The purpose of it and the reason we tried the machine in the first place was to improve our piston building. Using the exact right amount of flux, braze, and heat every single time without fail means that every piston is perfect. The possibility of human error is much smaller compared to brazing by hand and torch. We tried the same system for brazing together bell stems and flares. It would have saved us about 10 minutes of labor on every two piece bell we make. Considering we build about 6,000 two piece bells a year, you’re talking a lot of minutes and a lot of money saved. However, we just couldn’t get it right. There was something about it that was inferior to brazing by hand and it negatively affected the play of the horn. Rather than just saving the money and telling musicians to deal with the inferior product, we chose to keep brazing the bells by hand and deal with the added cost on our end. Unfortunately for players, not everyone values product quality over profit margins like that.

As for our student instruments we do our best to keep our prices down. However, we will never be able to build a $200 trumpet. Nobody in the States can. Instead, others just buy a horn from China and have their name stamped on the bell. Well, we won’t do that ever. Frankly, the thought of putting my family name on a cheap piece of junk makes me sick. It will never, ever happen. So then how do we compete? The only way we can, with higher quality. Our student models are built to the absolute highest standards possible without letting the prices climb. As it stands right now, we just barely break even on them thanks to high labor costs. This is because of all the work we feel is needed to have the best possible instruments going out to beginning players. Our student trumpets are all built by hand. The bells are all hand spun, the bodies are all hand mounted, the slides are all hand fit, the pistons are all hand lapped. In fact, there is nearly zero difference in the way student valve sections and professional valve sections are built. Both are built, treated, honed, and lapped the same. We could save a fortune if we skimped on just the honing and lapping, but why? Just so we can make a few extra dollars by short changing the consumer. Heck, if we really wanted to save costs on our student line we would just get rid of the lifetime warranty on our nickel pistons and go to a 12 month warranty on cheaper monel pistons. That would save us a pile of money, but again why? The gains would be short term. The junk horns would just reflect poorly on the rest of our lines and hurt future sales. A quick buck today just isn’t worth that.

OK, I’m going to end this rant now. I just want to say one more thing. When I was a kid and someone asked me what I wanted to do when I grew up my answer was always the same. “I want to buy back the Getzen Company.” Sure there was a time I wanted to be a cowboy, but I was 3 so that doesn’t count. Anyway, when my dad and uncle beat me to the punch, it was one of the happiest days of my life. Finally, we owned our name again. However, once we had the company back we had an enormous obstacle to overcome. The bad reputation that years of poor quality had built was difficult. At the time the company was known for having decent student model horns, but nothing note worthy in the professional line. Well, that was something we quickly strove to overcome. It took a lot of time, a lot of research, and a lot of trial and error, but I think we are finally there. This may sound like a typical sales pitch, but I think our current line up of professional trumpets is just as good, if not better, than anything else out there. Are they perfect for everyone? No, that’s just impossible. However, with the variety of trumpets we offer and the numerous options they carry, we can come pretty darn close. I take a great deal of personal pride in this. In modern times, family names in this business are meaningless. There is no longer a Mr. Bach, Mr. Callichio, or Mr. Schilke out there building trumpets. However, there are still a couple of Mr. Getzens here. Our name is on every horn that goes out the door and with it goes decades of experience and family tradition. To some that might not mean a great deal, but to us it does.

Thanks for listening to my rantings. I just had to get them off my chest so take them for what they’re worth.

Brett Getzen
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company

Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/

Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany

If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com.

[david johnson]

brett:

cheer up!! i said i started my own son on an older getzen capri trumpet. that was after i personally tried out other new & used horns. it was much the best.

dj

[dave belknap]

When the bean counters in the front office have TOTAL CONTROL over the quality of the products that are shipped at the back door, a lot of sub standard instruments go into circulation. I am given a lot of trumpets, cornets and flugs to test and evaluate. Other than the horns from Roy Lawler, Zig Kanstul and Dr. Richard Smith (Smith-Watkins), I see a pretty steady stream of bad soldering, inconsistent blowing qualities and lead pipes that are REALLY drawn 'way over toward the bell, due to excessive heat applied during the soldering process. How many really first rate trumpet players are currently employed as testers in the factories nowadays? VERY, VERY FEW, if any. The MBA bean counters are interested in numbers rather than quality.

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local 47 AF of M
Hollywood, CA

[Getzen]

I don't think the problem of the leadpipe being drawn to the bell is caused by excessive heat. Generally it is caused by ill fitting braces that require a great deal of fudging to fit. This means that if they are too short, the mounter has to squeeze the bell and leadpipe together to shorten the gap. If they are too long, the span between the bell and leadpipe needs to be stretched to make enough room for the brace between the two. Both things cause a tremendous amount of tension and stress within the bell and leadpipe tube which affects the resonance of both.

This is a pretty typical thing when the money watchers are involved. In an effort to increase mounting speed and decrease costs, small parts are made with much looser tolerances. This means that it requires less fitting time from the mounters when soldering, or more accurately slapping, the parts together. I once had a machine shop owner tell me it was as if they wanted to be able to throw a handfull of parts in the air and have them fall to the ground as a valve section. Another cause of this problem is the attempt to make one part work for many models. If two models are designed with different spacing between the bell and leadpipe a brace will be made that splits the difference. Too long for one and too short for the other, but able to be forced to work for both. This way the company can save a lot of money by ordering a larger quantity of one part rather than a smaller quantity of two.

This is just one of the negative affects of having too many people worry more about dividends and the bottom line and less about the product and consumer. If a quality reputation is still tied to the name then it will take awhile for people to realize that things have changed for the worse. If you cheapen the cost by 20% and only 5% of the consumers realize the decline and go elsewhere you're still coming out ahead. Although, this is very short term thinking and will cost you a fortune in the long run.

Brett Getzen
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company

Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/

Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany

If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com.

[WAKeele]

All this talk makes me want to just make my own trumpets. One of these days I think I'll give that a try.
_________________
WAK
Ace Hardware Hoseophone w/heavy-weight funnel
Bach 20C Megatone (gold plated) w/ 30 throat
Handguard once believed to be used by Arban
$10,000 Stoneline mute bought on eBay

[roynj]

I do not believe that craftsmanship has departed, but perhaps has only moved to some new names. I think as getzen points out, that there are some really great student line trumpets being made these days. Getzen being one of them, along with Kanstul and Yamaha (and a couple others). In the mid to higher priced range one can select from any number of well-crafted trumpets. Brands come to mind (in addition to the three mentioned earlier) such as Schilke, Bach Strad (yes), and the various ultra-low production makers such as Lawler, Calichio, Eclipse and a few others. For the money, one still has to come to the conclusion that a finely crafted pro line trumpet is among the cheapest of all musical instruments out there. Try buying a pro line bassoon or Euphonium or flute (for heavens sake!), and one is thousands above the price point of all but the most exclusive custom makers.