Where has the craftsmanship gone?

nieuwguyski · Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:28 pm Post subject:

Didn't Kanstul officially drop the student instruments? I'm not talking about the 700-series intermediate horns, but whatever they used to make at an even lower price point. I thought I read, in an interview with Zig Kanstul in a trade magazine, that the company was abandoning the student market because the overseas manufacturers (China and India) could at any time take advantage of their extremely cheap labor to raise their quality to whatever arbitrary level it took to continue selling in the US market.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

camelbrass · Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject:

Brett,

I really think you're preaching to the (mainly) converted. Reading the general opinion of people on the site towards Getzen there seems to be a growing opinion that your trumpets are part of the 'built by hand' movement. I included you when I my made my point about comparative costs. My point was actually aimed at buyers rather than manufacturers and reinforces how little we pay, as players, for excellent instruments.

I think perceptions towards Getzen have changed. I know that if I was looking for a replacement for my beloved Taylor then Edwards (probably Gen III) would be part of my sample. That wouldn't have been the case a while ago..not because your trumpets have changed, just that my perception has. I'm sure that that percepition will filter down to the student line trumpets, if it hasn't already.

Regards,

Trevor

plp · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:09 am Post subject:

go Breett, go Breett,..

If it is any consolation, the musical instrument market is not the only ones affected. I am a surveyor first and foremost, although I haven't done it professionally in 6 years, and the same thing is happening to the manufacture of surveying equipment. I have a 1948 Wild T-1 theodolite (fancy name for the transit thingy) made to tolerences good enough to still be usable today, that with reasonable care will be still cranking out angles 50 years from now. The fit and finish on these are just incredible. To put it in perspective, you could buy a house in 1948 for what one of these cost, but it allowed the owner to build houses for others, and earn the money to buy their own. Today, after merger mania, the Wild company no longer exists and the equipment today is literally made out of recycled milk jugs with a computer board. Probably not a good example, because the digital coding has replaced the mechanical craftsmanship, but I doubt my TCRA 1103 will still be functional in 20 years, much less 50.

DaveH · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861

bandman322 · Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:47 pm Post subject:

So we have a lot of opinions here. Most of us agree that there is a problem. What do we do about it? Is there anything that we as consumers can do to influence the instrument companies?
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C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37

"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie

Geri · Regular Member Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 78

As long as there is a market for cheap instruments, companies will fill the market with cheaply made instruments. Seeing as the free market economy isn't a new thing, I don't think that cheap instruments are a new "innovation". Maybe it just seems that way since all the cheap instruments that were made back in the good old days were thrown away years ago?

Getzen · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924

To be honest, I don't really have an answer for the "what can we do?" question. All I can say is that you have to continue to demand the finest quality possible.

Don't buy into the big boys claim of "This is as good as it gets". If your pistons are garbage when you buy the horn, take it back. If they seize in 6 months, take it back. If you have to play 40 different horns from the same manufacturer to find that one good one, obviously they have a problem. Don't listen to the claims of a needed "break in" period.

As soon as you as the consumer begin to accept a decline in quality you've already lost out. Things will just continue to slip all over the industry with these lowered expectations. Once the industry giants get away with lower quality, everyone else will have to follow suit in order to compete. When that happens the only companies building any instruments worth their salt will be the small shops charging an arm and a leg for the level of quality that was once the standard.

Basically, demand more for your money. Oh, and don't ever buy a horn based on what it says on the bell. In some cases, the names are meaningless these days. What used to mean high quality in the past means nothing now.

Brett Getzen
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Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company

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If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com.

dave belknap · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 677

In view of the seeming general agreement regarding the apparent lack of first rate quality construction standards currently in vogue among some of "the big boys" of the industry, the time may be ripe for the formation of a trumpet/cornet/flugelhorn "road test" board. Other members of the wind instrument family could be included at a later date, via their own "forum(s)". The "road test" board could be made up of three noted trumpet masters who would be not only "trumpet literate" but would be fluent in basic journalist practices and, additionally, fluent in the English language. Such "road test" masters have existed in England for some time. Their reports do (seem to) have some effect on certain segments of the industry in England.

Each of the members of the board would test the same instrument for a reasonably short period of time.....perhaps fortyeight hours. That board member would then repackage and ship the instrument to the next member. The process would be repeated until each member had tested the instrument and the "test horse" had been returned to the manufacturer or the point of distribution from whence it came.

As each tester finished his/her work, he/she would e-mail a complete opinion to a central point ("chairperson of the board") where the three reports would be placed into a final format which would appear in this Forum.

Initially, the board members would (no doubt) be responsible for shipping/insurance costs of the test instruments. Perhaps certain trade journals would eventually publish, on a regular basis, these test results.

Control factors such as the use of a single brand of valve oil and slide grease would be necessary. The ideal person(s) would be those who play on a daily basis, have many years of experience in the trumpet performance field and have the ability to express their findings on an objective rather than a subjective basis, always bearing in mind that the reason for the test is that of establishing the level of the blow/build quality or lack of same.

The manufacturer(s) or distributor(s) would be responsible for providing the instruments to be tested. I am totally aware that we would run the risk of those companies very carefully selecting the very best on hand version of the model to be tested. I have play tested horns and road tested sports cars for many years. I know how the "game" is played. The test "specials" are easily identified. The stand out like the proverbial "sore thumb". Dealers and/or manufacturers representatives would not be permitted to serve on the proposed board.

Give me your opinions.

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local 47 AF of M
Hollywood, CA

greatgoz@hotmail.com

Bruce Lee · Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:41 am Post subject:

Thanks for the great posts, Brett! You bring up a MAJOR bone of contention, in the fact that "skilled" artisans are actually performing the assembly work. Sadly, with the high cost of labor, as you have stated so well, the "bottom-line" has had a tremendous effect on the entire industry. To add something to your auto maker comments, companies like Ford do make a much higher quality automobile that is sold exclusively in Europe. "Ours" are built for quick replacement. Sadly, so are many instrument lines. The unfortunate part of all of this is that many parents only want to buy ONE trumpet for their kid... expecting it to last all of the way through school.

Also very true, is the "live music" factor. And, I see a really mixed bag of great teaching out there, and mediocre teaching. Perhaps it's the fact that kids have to do it all, these days. Instrumental music programs that used to start at the end of 3rd grade, or in 4th grade, now begin in 6th grade. At that point in time, kids are spread so thin with all of the other activities, that many of them don't know how to achieve excellence. For many parents, this results in "How much is it going to cost me, to see my kid fail?" THAT is the real problem! Many aren't behind the kids, and as consumers, only learn that economics drives EVERYTHING. Quality goes out the door, and failure is almost guaranteed. To that end, I believe that the Music Teacher needs to educate parents about an acceptable standard of instruments for their students.

To prove a point, I doubt VERY MUCH that you'll see sawdust filled baseballs being used for sporting events. No, on the contrary, the phys-ed budget insists upon quality. Why should the music department settle for lesser quality? Granted the cost of a baseball is much less than a musical instrument, but I believe that the quality issue is what we're talking about here. Maybe "mafields037" will chime in, here, about how the music program, especially marching band is funded, at the University of Alabama. How about it, Matt?

roynj writes: "Try buying a pro line bassoon or Euphonium or flute (for heavens sake!), and one is thousands above the price point of all but the most exclusive custom makers." One word to that.... AMEN!!!

So, as far as quality is concerned, we are often our own worst enemy, for falling into the "consumer mindset"... whether we're talking about student instruments, or professional instruments. We have to pay for quality... at ALL levels!

Looks like we have a pet-peeve thread going here, eh?

Best always,
Bruce
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Please contact me for BE Lessons

JasonHarrelson · Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:43 pm Post subject:

Craftsmanship?

You hit home on this one...I can't tell you how many horns I've disassembled only to find a dime-size blob of solder in a leadpipe or tuning slide. It doesn't matter if the horn was built last year or in 1935, quality varies greatly with almost every single manufacturer I have ever encountered. And solder blockage is just one of many crude oversights hidden inside seemingly beautiful horns.

Where's the craftsmanship? It is in the past for the most part....nearly forgotten along with an era of pride-driven folks that worked with their hands not with their computers. I truly appreciate all that technology has made possible. But companies, consumers and everyday people are forgetting that quality is not a price tag or an impulse buy, but something of true value.

Why buy it if there is no true value? I don't know why, but I see people buying cell phones more often than their shoes. Why? Can't you buy a cell phone that will last more than a year? I have never owned one, so I don't really understand. I know people that buy new cars every 2-3 years, but why? Do they wear out that quickly? I still drive my grandfather's old '78 Chevy El Camino with no problems.

Society has changed...some values have been replaced with temporary gadgets that often have little or no practical use. I personally see the value in owning a one-of-a-kind beautiful instrument that will be handed down for generations. Of course, I don't watch tv, I practice and perform an average 30+ hours/week. I sometimes wonder if I were meant live in another time as I still don't know the some guy named Sinefeld or the show "Friends". But I do know how to entertain a crowd with seven notes.

Ok...so I'm a little sensitive when it comes to mass production and silly fads that influence our country's economy. BUT I also know many great people that work tirelessly to teach values in life through music. Whether it be on stage at the Kennedy Center or in a North Dakota high school gym, players and teachers around the country give their all to show the world music is an old world craft. It is not just something we do...it is the essence of this dialogue...trumpet playing is an art. Our music is a reflection of our individual craftsmanship.

I am grateful to have such a loyal following of clients and friends worldwide. You make my craft possible. I devote my life to meet your demands, criticism and applaud as a musician, artisit and trumpet builder. Please demand quality in everything that requires time, thought, energy and investment.

We make music...we listen...and we inspire each other to see the world with our ears.

Jason Harrelson
_________________
Harrelson Trumpets
www.whyharrelson.com

TrumpetEnthusiast1 · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:13 am Post subject:

Sweet post Jason.

bandman322 · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:19 am Post subject:

Jason,

Your comments remind me of the fact that my father always said that we lived in a "fast-food" society, but I have changed that to say that we live in "microwave" society.

When our parents were young, people tended to wait longer for things. They appreciated the quality of a home cooked meal. That all changed with fast food and the fact that you could have a mass produced meal served to you in 5-10 minutes. Quality went down, but "service" and "immediate gratification" went up.

When we were young the paradigm changed again when the microwave became part of the world. Now days you can have a complete meal in 45-seconds. Remember when mom would cook the turkey in the oven for 12-14 hours? Now you can do it in the microwave in 90-minutes. The quality has gone down, but it sure is fast. What do you do when the microwave breaks? Throw it away and replace it!

As you know, I ordered a new flugelhorn, and it will take Kanstul 6-8 weeks to get me that horn. I was told that they will be closing down during part of the upcoming holidays for them to spend time with their families. Wow! What a concept! Spending time with the family instead of going to work everyday, 363 days a year.

I'll be patient! I know that by waiting for a custom horn, that I'll get a better horn, and it will come from a craftsman that is a happy guy who had a great holiday. He will take his time, but eventually get me a high quality, first class instrument. Waiting is hard, kind of like when the smell of the turkey filled the house on Christmas or Thanksgiving morning and mom told us to get out of the kitchen while she finished preparing the meal. I'm sure we all have memories of nibbling while the turkey was carved! Reading posts here on TH is my way of nibbling!

I'm sure some folks will read my post this morning and will suggest that I got out of bed, checked e-mail, and that I blundered through this post in my sleep. Others will read it, think about the smell of the turkey from their childhood, think bout being told "good things come to those who wait", and they will understand that some of the old ways were better than those of today's microwave life-style!

Good night -- I'm going back to bed and hopefully I’ll dream about that horn! Or even better, I’ll dream about the wonders of Christmas’ Past!
_________________
C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37

"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie

Hi Horns · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:19 pm Post subject: Where has the craftmanship gone?

The craftmanship for which you search is alive and well in Anaheim CA. The Kanstul company has been producing instruments for beginners and professionals of the highest quality and consistancy for about the last 22 years. The reason many players overlook Kanstul is because they don't "snow you" with misleading and overwhelming marketing but instead put their $ into the highest standards of production on the planet. Without the expensive marketing paid for by customers who buy the "known brands" Kanstul still manages to hold a place among professionals in the know as one of the best (if not the best) line of brass instruments in the world. This is not because people are paid to play these instruments or because they feature the biggest profit margin in most music stores. This is because these are truely fine and consistant instruments. A brass musician owes it to him/her self to give these instruments a serious trial before purchasing anything else.

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Hi Horns is an exclusively Kanstul Brass dealership specialising in trumpets and flugelhorns. We are interested in answering any questions you have about these instruments.

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

When you look at current retail prices for some of the "pro" models and compare that with the prices of some of the "custom" horns.... it makes you realize what a heck of a bargain a Schilke is..... doesn't it? Or one of the Kanstul Signature horns... or a Getzen top-line model.

Brett, if your horns approach the quality that was being put into them in the early 70's, you are riding a winner. Hang in there, beat the trade shows to death and you'll see results before long. The guys at Kanstul are doing a darn fine job at building quality too; particularly when you consider all of the other "custom makers" who use Kanstul to prepare the basic instrument. It's those $()%*(*&#( corporations and their "bottom line, short term financial results oriented, highly bonused executives" who are messing up the works in concert with the companies trying to make a buck and to heck with tomorrow by plugging the market with the Asian junk.

One thing nobody has done yet is.... take the price of the $200 Asian junkers and work backwards to see what their prices would have been in the 60's and 70's. What would it be? about $35? Maybe $25? The public perception is that you shouldn't HAVE to pay more than $200 for a student trumpet.... like they could buy a new car today for the price they would have paid for a Mustang "back when"?

I'm dating myself... I can remember buying 6 loaves of bread for $1.00 when I was in University! I'm always shocked to find a loaf of bread today at $2.00.... WHAT NERVE!!!

GMacDaddyTPO · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:26 pm Post subject:

I think you have to take inflation into account here. To buy a student trumpet in the sixties for about $400 should be about equivilant to buying a $700 student horn today.

Heck, I'm a 15 year old kid and I just bought a Yamaha Xeno for $1379, and every last dime of that money I EARNED on my own. No help at all (Except for my job maybe)

So money just doesn't have the worth it used to either...