Blind test of trumpets

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:13 pm Post subject: Blind test of trumpets

I'm planning to blind test any of the trumpets my teacher has for me to try. Has anyone done this before, and do y'all think it's a good idea? I have absolutely no clue what trumpets he'll have for me.

Bonnie
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"Yet to all who received Him, and believed in His name, He gave the right to become sons of God" John

Sounds: http://www.sitesled.com/members/bonniej
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bandman322 · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject:

I think it sounds like a great idea! I wish that I could be there to see how he does it. I also hope that he has several different horns - not just Bach and Yamaha. Please tell us how he did it, and what your results are.
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C - Harrelson 750 Modified Bach Strad
Picc - Schilke P5-4
Flugel - Kanstul ZKF1525
Bb - Bach Strad 180ML-37

"To be a teacher you need to be as good a performer as you can be: you'll have more to impart to your students musically." - John Haynie

_PhilPicc · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject:

Bonnie, As long as you think it is a good idea go for it. If you have no pre-conceived ideas of which horn you think is better than the others I really don't think it is necessary.

However that is easier said than done not to have an idea of what horn you think you would like to have or would work best for you.

There are of course the other issues in choosing a horn as to the type of music that will be your primary venue and matching mouthpieces to a particular horn etc, etc. It's good that your teacher is helping you with this. It gives you a good set of ears to listen plus you have your musical family also.

Best of luck and please keep us posted as to how everything shakes out.

Regards,
Phil
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Philip Satterthwaite

We cannot expect you to be with us all the time, but perhaps you could be good enough to keep in touch now and again."
- Sir Thomas Beecham to a musician during a rehearsal

Vin DiBona · Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject:

I don't usually give advice, but this time I will.
When I went to see Gary Radtke a few years back, I told him I did not want him to tell me what he was handing me - I wanted no pre-conceived mouthpiece ideas in my head. That worked for me and I came out with the proper mouthpiece.
Late last year, I decided it was time for a new C trumpet. I went to a local store when they had a well stocked inventory of various Bachs, Yamahas, and what remained of the French Besson Classic. I told them just bring them in to me and let me try them. There were 6 Bachs in all and 9 or 10 horns in total.
I deliberately did not look at the bells or receiver on the Bachs and compared the Yamahas (Xenos) and the French Besson as blindly as I could. The Yamaha disappeared from contention immediately and the French Besson and the Bachs went at it.
A Bach 239/25A won out over all of them and I was certain it was a 229/25H until I really looked at it. (All the horms were large bores , although not all were silver plated). This session took well over 2 hours and I honestly did not look at what I was playing Bach-wise until I was down to the final 3. The first Bachs to go turned out to be the 229/25H models and that is what I expected to buy. The final three turned out to be the purchased 239/25A, a 239/25S and the Besson Classic.
This method might work for you and you certainly have nothing to lose by attempting it. Just take a break after each horn to give your chops a time to recover and start fresh on another horn.
Good luck.
Rich Tomasek

Robert Rowe · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:00 am Post subject:

Good advice being given here, by above posters.
The one "Wild Card" here is mouthpieces. Bring along your own fav (or two) to use on the "mystery horns". As is often the case, some horns work better with specific mouthpieces and in certain genres of music. You probably aren't vitally concerned with that at the time being, though.
Keep an open mind. Also, ask your teacher what his / her point is... (always question "authority").

Robert Rowe

Effort = Results

L.Bar-EL · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1694

Have you decided what you're going to play so as to test them out using most of the areas of that a horn should be judged on?

There was a list of features that was published here awhile back.

Does anyone remember what was on that list?

Good luck,

Liad Bar-EL

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:41 am Post subject:

Good advice all. I will definitely post the results, which I will probably head under a new post with the name of the new horn. The method will just be not looking at the bells. Another idea would be to play it blind folded. Lol, I think that's unecessary though, because I really don't care if it's silver or brass.

I'm afraid I am biased, thanks to reading about so many horns here! It's not entirely a bad thing though.

I would very much like to look at that list, if anyone could send it to me or post it here I'd appreciate it.

I want a solid all-over good horn. I don't play any one particular type of music all the time. I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for. I hope whatever horn is right will be drastically better and surprise me. I've only gone "horn hunting" a few times, and last time I did it, I didn't have much experience in feeling small nuances from horn to horn.

The REALLY good thing is my teacher is a very nice guy, and very knowledgable on horns. If I play the one I pick for a few weeks and it's not working out, I know he'll try to find another one that will work better.

I'll let you know what happens!

Bonnie
_________________
"Yet to all who received Him, and believed in His name, He gave the right to become sons of God" John

Sounds: http://www.sitesled.com/members/bonniej
_________________________________

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:44 am Post subject:

bandman322 · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:03 pm Post subject:

mheffernen5 · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:27 pm Post subject:

Good luck trumpetplayer87

2ndchair · Veteran Member Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 352

This is a great way to pick out a trumpet.

When my students go horn hunting I usually accompany them. We often play the don't tell me what it is game and a lot of preconceptions get blown away. (ouch, bad pun.)

Have some fun with this test. I'm sure you'll know which horn to adopt at the end of the day.

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:09 am Post subject:

histrumpet · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:34 am Post subject:

I was involved with a project like this last year at the Trumpetfest in Alabama. Horns by Bach, Yamaha, Conn, Flip Oakes (Wild Thing), Lawler (3 different models), Callet, Blackburn, and Eclipse along with a few others were represented. The guys playing them were Bob Odneal, Bruce Lee, Lee Adams, Tom Turner, and a few other local artists. Each horn was played in the lower, mid, and upper-upper register with each player using the mouthpiece he or she normally would use. The panel of judges had no idea which horn was being played at the time, the results were very revealing.

Hey Bandman (John) You may want to consider making a trip to the East (Mobile Al.) for the 2nd meeting of area trumpet players and check out some really nice horns. Yes, we are putting together another Trumpet Fest sponsored by Callet Trumpets and Northern Brass. Stay tuned for details as the become available.

Billy B · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:25 am Post subject:

So what were the results?
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L.Bar-EL · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1694

histrumpet · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:01 am Post subject:

No Liad but I will see if I can get Lee to post the results of the test. From what I could tell it seems the Blackburn didn't really project that well and had a somewhat dull sound. The Bach was close to the Blackburn in this respect as well. I don't want to sound biased

but I thought the Callet had a good sizzle in the upper register but did not sacrifice a good core of sound in the mid and lower register.

L.Bar-EL · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1694

I found it, thanks anyway Bruce.

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6502&highlight=testing

This thread is strictly to organize the actual evaluations by TH members, senza the peripheral comments and is not intended to disparage the peripheral comments in any way.

The following guideline or template was offered by Lee Adams to be used as a general reference with which to evaluate the horn.

1. Response

2. Intonation checked with a tuner and with
other horns if possible

3. Slotting all registers

4. Sound

5. Projection

6. Overall playability

7. Construction

8. Comparative (compare it to your own horn or horns)

9. If played with others or on gigs comments on blending with others.

10. Mouthpiece(s) used during testing.

Any other variable is welcomed to be commented on as well when you make your report.

MrOlds · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject:

Good list. Just to add a little more Geek-Factor(tm) - is the order important, or are their weights that we'd put on each criteria? If so, I'd vote for:

1. Sound. (10 pts)
2. Intonation (10 pts)
3. Clarity/Security of Articulation (10 pts) (slightly different than slotting)
4. Blending with others (10 pts)
5. Projection (10 pts)
6. Slotting (5 pts)
7. Response (5 pts)
8. Playability (5 pts)
9. Construction (1 pts)
10. Comparative (1 pts)
11. Mouthpiece (1 pt)

The assumption being that what people hear is more important than what it feels like to us and those are more important than the final few.

Whaddya think?

trumpetplayer87 · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject:

Ok, what exactly is 'slotting'?

What would be involved in 'construction'? Possible loose braces, dented, etc?

Bonnie

Edited to add: What's the difference between 'response' and 'playability'?

Thank-you mheffernen5

As well as the rest of you who have given advice.
_________________
"Yet to all who received Him, and believed in His name, He gave the right to become sons of God" John

Sounds: http://www.sitesled.com/members/bonniej
_________________________________

Tootsall · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952

"Slotting", the tendency of the horn to lock in on the specific frequencies at each valve/note setting. Loose slotting means you can "bend" the note more easily than "tight" slotting thereby possibly making it more difficult to hit the note center without "scooping".

Also don't forget intonation or note accuracy... whether the horn tends to "slot" on the correct frequency at each note or not. (This is an area where some brands might not be as good as others... Schilke is notoriously accurate as are most of the more expensive, "custom" jobs. Yamaha does a good job here too, as well as Kanstul and Getzen).

Construction: General quality of the fit and finish. Are there any visible "holes" or pores in the solder where joints exist? Any evidence of poor finish? Bubbles in the lacquer? Silver plating not perfect around solder joints? How accurately are the threads machined on the valve top and bottom caps? Do the threads start up easily when reassembling or do they feel like "cheap, stamped" threads? Any evidence of solder smears outside the immediate area of the joints themselves? Quality of the finish? Does it look like someone took their time to "do it right", or did you get the feeling that it was a rush job?