teaching/learning improv

tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:38 pm Post subject:

now, I have been learning to improvise for just over six years... well as long as I've been playing trumpet. It seems all I really like to practice is scales and modes and figuring out sounds/learning solos. My thought is; the ideal thing, as I've been told, is to be able to look ahead musically at what you will play. To play a melody or something alnog that line, not just scales and arpeggio's. Some even say you should be able to sing the solo you would play. Like to always know whats coming next and not sort of just bs through changes. Well then, why is it then improvisers are taught to play on a scale or a few scales to start with. And how come nobody ever seems to have a begginer sing a solo and the transcribne it? How can we be expected to play with melodic thought when from the beggining people tell you, "play this scale here, or this chord means this mode" Why not, ask the student what their ear hears over the chord, have them sing "their" safe notes. And where they here the resolution and the transfer that to the instrument. I guess I'm trying to say, if improve is taught the common... here is a penta tonic scale way, the scales you know and your ability to navigate a chord change becomes whats key. And your limit. If you were taught how to match the pitches in your head, perhaps you would be a better, true improviser. Thoughts anyone?

Vessehune · Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:12 pm Post subject:

I think this is right on! I tired for a while to do the this scale over this chord approach. And it didn't work. I was more worried about playing notes in the scale then listening to the changes. Which is fine if I want a really boring solo.

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-24 14:57 ]

dwm1129 · Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:18 pm Post subject:

listen to Louis. He played melodicaly, thats all he played, you can't miss the melody he is putting down, his whole solos rarely had passing tones or scales in them, they were very basic, but genius.
Thats were you should start to learn, because if you jump in wanting to learn how to play be-bop, odds are your going to miss the concept of melody, because to the beginers ear all it sounds like is runs and that in turn is what you end up sounding like, missing the whole concept of melody.
You have to build a strong foundation in the concept of phrasing and melody and early jazz is perfect for it. And as you get better you can progress to transcibing more difficult solos and using scales to connect your musical thoughts.
It's like learning anything in life you should start at the begining.

[ This Message was edited by: dwm1129 on 2002-06-24 19:22 ]

pedaltonekid · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1711

For starters you can work out simple melodies. This will help you learn to play what you are hearing in your head. Next transpose the melody into all of the different key signatures.

Next you can experiment with a couple of basic patterns and play the patterns mixed in with the melody.

This will be the start of your improvising vocabulary. As you discover new sounds in your head work them out slowly and over time you will acquire a large vocabulary so that you can play almost anything that you hear inside.
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tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:02 am Post subject:

umm, I have always thought that the people who can sing a solo, say as their playing it are few and far between. People mentioned some of the masters. Like for instance miles davis. I've been listening to miles in very heavy amounts over the past seven years and I have learned alot of things. First Miles had little use for intonation, if you think I'm just saying this listen to the begining of I loves you porgy again. That A is painful, and the truth is, you usually don't hear how out of tune say an "A" is in the majority of the settings miles recorded in. But with Gil orchistrating the voices are often so close it is obiously aparant. Umm saying this I think we can realize that even a godlike figure(at least to me) like Miles isn't perfect. I seriously doubt if he would have the ability to sing a solo before it happened, or while it was happening. Plus I mean that voice he had, what was it called, the like horse-whisper, wouldn't have helped. And What I was saying was perhaps we could find or someone could find a different way of teaching improv, or directing new players that would turn them into musicians that could sing through their horn. Knowing what the solo would sound like before it came out. I've heard Bobby Cairins a local edmonton guy who played with some really heavy names like, Dizzy and such... sing along with his solo. And I have heard that his uncle or was it great uncle was a hudge symphony conductor and taught nothing but theory and sight singing to Bobby before he started. So maybe like, teach a student how to predict pictches on their instrument, they would of course have to be decent players so tone would be right... and the teach them that they can sing over changes, a solo they would like to play. And then teach them to find their own voice, the one they have already sang. I dunno, maybe I'm just to young to realize how silly this idea is,

regards,
Charlies

tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:26 am Post subject:

I guy I met had a slitghtly different spin on the chord progresion idea. If you thing chordally, and know some of the scales you can go from say the notes in a Bbm7 to an EbM7 in a bunch of ways right. Well, if you think in terms of where your starting and where you headed. Chord to chord, that can be enough. So, when I was trying it out I would look at the key signiture of the pice and the play into the next chords, using my ear as my guide. A little less complicated that learning all the scales, and it is more musical if you become good enough to think melodically then aswell. another guy I know who is a profesional is always telling me to use a mentatoic scale, like one the whole time. I can't do that anymore, I mean it's all about whats easy for you, or gets you results. Yeah, I should probablly say al little less sometimes I think...
ohh and I moved this topic to jazz, comercial.

pfrank · Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:35 am Post subject:

Not such a silly idea!
I've heard that that's how they train musicians in India (classical Indian music)--they have to be able to sing (with Indian solfage) anything they play First. The (what used to be called)3rd stream dept. at N.E. Conservatory is influenced by this approach.
As for melodic soloing, I recomend listening to Monk. With Thelonius, it's Melody First and Formost. Also, Bird: when I hear C. Parker, I hear melodic, not harmonic ideas (at the speed of light). He had thousands of copiers, but none with his "singing" quality!

I also recomend listening to your heart. Is that too esoteric for TH? Whatever. My best experience in life is when, by listening to what is flowing through the heart, the music tells YOU what to play...
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