DB

[dbacon]

DB

[histrumpet]

Dave,

Maybe you can explain the reason for occurance of the following events:
Lets say you take the same hose as described above and produce a constant flow of water through it with no variance in pressure. When you decrease the size of the opening on the discharge end of the hose does the water travel a greater distance? Does the hose analogy hold water?

[ This Message was edited by: histrumpet on 2002-08-03 13:59 ]

[Nicholas Dyson]

This is a great example of a GREAT player explaining things the way he sees them, although they don't make sense. Kinda similar, although not exactly, to the good player = good teacher and vice versa thread that was going a while ago.

I would invite anyone and everyone to visit the debating forum thread "Air speed and pitch". So far it's been very one sided, and is begging for you (or Scotty Englebright!!!) or anyone else for that matter to debate. Hopefully see you there!!!
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[dbacon]

DB

[tom turner]

Air SPEED . . . or air PRESSURE?

A POINT TO PONDER . . .

Does the air actually speed up to get through a tiny aperture . . . or does it get through the tiny aperture because there is sufficient AIR PRESSURE to the air volume to push it through?

SAME WITH A WATER HOSE . . .

Does the water actually speed up to get through a tiny aperture when the faucet is slightly opened . . . or does it get through the tiny aperture because there is sufficient WATER PRESSURE to push it through . . .

due to the hundreds of tons of water sitting high in the tower . . . or remaining under intense pressure by a water pump?

Yes . . . of course the air/water molecules will be compressed by the PRESSURE and then decompress (spread out more rapidly) once past the aperture/faucet!

The water between the water faucet and the water tower ain't got any speed to it whatsoever . . . until the faucet is opened . . . and then it is measure in PSI (a measurement of pressure).

Same in a person's air stream when they develop air pressure GREATER than what will be needed . . . and then open the chops just enough to sound the specific pitch desired.

Most players use way too much ARM pressure and WAY too little AIR pressure. It's not about air speed, IMHO . . . its about developing sufficient air PRESSURE to get the chops buzzin' the right pitch.

Also, once past the aperture/faucet, the air/water rapidly loses pressure and energy because of being spread out. VERY LITTLE AIR VOLUME is released into a trumpet that's being played . . . in relative terms . . . and less and less as the buzzed frequency goes higher!

Minor point . . . yet major difference. It is important for players to develop the concept of attaining a much greater air pressure reserve than will ever be needed.

If the air pressure EVER gets too low for the notes at hand, nasty bad habits must be used to get the job done.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 09:56 ]

[phrenetic trumpet]

I've wondered about this "faster air vs. more air volume" issue for some time. I am assuming that "faster air" means that the air is travelling faster inside the body.

I guess the moment of truth for me came when I realized that I did not know how to differentiate between the two when playing the trumpet. In other words, what do you do differently with the breathing apparatus (lungs, diaphram, abs, intercostals, etc.) to produce more air as opposed to faster air.

IMHO, you don't do anything different. You just push (the air) harder. This creates a more pressurized environment. Assuming that the aperture size does not change, pushing harder creates more pressure inside the body and a faster air stream escaping through the lips.

We all seem to argue whether this can increase pitch. I think it can, but only to a point. Eventually, the aperture needs to be smaller.

I might add that the embouchure must function properly or all the air in the world won't help much. I'm living proof of this.

Regards,
Brian

[_Don Herman]

Hi, Walter, and thanks for the vote of confidence, but I've decided that trying to explain Bernoulli's Principle, or other engineering or (shudder) physics principles, to trumpet players just ain't worth it. I quoted Jacobs' view last time around and was told he didn't understand how air and the embouchure worked. About like telling Feinman he didn't understand quantum physics... Besides, it don't really matter what the right explanation is, for most people, just that they find one which works for them. I respect Tim a great deal, and we exchange notes now and then (I'm off TPIN now due to time constraints). He worked really hard to figure things out, but for me the most important point he made -- or Scott and Danny made, for that matter -- is to use what works for YOU! Besides, I'm an analog EE, not a flow or physics kinda' guy, despite a coupla' grad acoustics classes (ugly, ugly math; be afraid, be very afraid!)

Regarding compressibility, you are correct about denser materials (water, brass, my head) being less compressible than, say, air, but for us it doesn't matter much -- we'd have to work pretty hard to compress air in our bodies. We put it under pressure, yes, but compress? I don't think much if any, but don't know for sure. A compressor can put it under 90 psi or better; we'd do good to reach 2 or 3, i think. As big as the pressure feels to us, sad to say in nunerical terms it ain't too impressive. As for the water hose analogy, I have many issues with it but it works for some if not others, so whatever. I will note (no pun intended ) that if you try to keep the same volume flowing out per unit time and decrease the orifice (or, aperture) then the air must obviously flow faster and a larger pressure differential results. Your lips will likely tighten to better control the new (higher) pressure differential, which will raise the pitch of the note being played. I think.

Dunno' if I can contribute to this thread -- weren't you (Walter) the one presenting a wealth of great material in a thread not too long ago? Or was that Pat? Senility seeps in... I suppose if there's interest I could start another physics thread and present some ideas, but I've got to find more posting time first. Sorry for the run-about... I'm going to take an aspirin and go back to the latest Pern novel...

All the Best (or, should that be "Beast"? ) - Don
_________________
Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[_bugleboy]

Dave Bacon has graced the TH with the Tastee Bro philosophy. A reasonable conclusion is that he must be in complete agreement with everything that is said in this essay by Scott Englebright.

SE: It is well known that faster air creates higher notes.

CR: FALSE. It is not well known and it is definitely yet to be proven. Saying it doesn't make it so.

SE: Remember when you would blow up a balloon, squeeze the open end, and create that obnoxious squealing sound? Well, your lips basically work the same way.

CR: FALSE. This is not even a remotely parallel comparison to the complex action of the lips while playing the trumpet. This type of analogy, and the minds that embrace it, is the product of very simplistic and one dimensional thinking. This is the mentality that believes the only forces on the lips during performance are those that stretch the lips into a smile. The lips don't work this way at all.

SE: The greater the tension, the faster the vibrations and the higher the pitch.

CR: This is probably true. SE never defines his terms, but I will guess that he and I do not have the same definition in mind for "tension."

SE: When we play by creating faster lips vibrations, it's imperative that we focus on speeding up the vibrations WITHOUT changing the lip tension.

CR: OK. I read this to mean that SE wants to increase the rate of vibration without changing the tension. He has already stated that if the tension increases so does the pitch. Now he wants to increase the pitch without increasing the tension.

SE: If the lips change, typically so does the clarity of sound.

CR: If the lips change in what way? What does this sentence mean? My lips change when I play and my tone is very consistent throughout my range. The lips can and do change in many ways without any typical affect on the clarity of sound.

SE: When you hear people mention faster air when they play, they are usually referring to higher notes.

CR: Except me. When I mention faster air I'm referring to louder notes.

SE: As stated above, the faster the air, the faster the vibrations, and the higher the pitch.

CR: FALSE. Not proven. "As stated above" is far from being "as proven above." Stating it does not prove it.

SE: If you are going to think one thing, make sure it's the amount of air you inspire. The less air you have to use, the worse you will sound and the more difficult playing will be.

CR: FALSE. It is very common (for me anyway) to inspire less air for very soft passages and more air for loud passages. The lesser amount of air does not make my sound different in any way and there is no increase in difficulty of sound production. Also, by this logic (The less air you have to use, the worse you will sound) it would follow that if you fill your lungs and then start to play a passage, you will sound increasingly worse as you use up your air. But this is not the case at all. It is very normal to sound the same from the beginning of a phrase to the end of it, and NOT sound continually worse as the air is used up. Did SE have something else in mind when he said, "The less air you have to use, the worse you will sound?" If he did then he should have said it!

SE: Now, when you think of faster air, think of how your face is formed just prior to blowing out a match. Got it? Now, without changing the resistance you feel when you blow, form your normal embouchure by reforming your lips. After that, take in enough air to blow out a cake full of candles and play your horn.

CR: OK.

SE: Hopefully that made things a little clearer. Now that you understand
'faster',

CR: Come on! What's to understand? What's to make a little clearer? Really! You blow the air faster. This isn't rocket science here. Blow the air faster. That's it. Just blow the air faster. I think I got it.

SE: ........ let's discuss 'more' air. When you breathed as you did to blow out the candles, you probably realized that there is only one way to fill your lungs.

CR: Well you could breathe thru your nose or your mouth, so strictly speaking, there would be two ways. The air goes in and the lungs fill up. Voila!

SE: An important thing to remember is that what is important is 'what' you do with the air you have inside. If you take in a lot of air and aren't efficient at exhaling to play the trumpet, you won't see
results.

CR: FALSE. The results one may achieve with an inefficient exhalation will almost certainly be less than optimum. But there will certainly be results. Not optimum results, but results. Is this what Scott means by his statement? That an inefficient exhalation will yield less than optimum results. If it is then he should have said it that way. But there is nothing profound or remarkable about stating that something that is inefficient will yield less than optimum results. I'm sure many of us are able to figure that one out on our own.

SE: Also remember that you usually don't have to think about breathing at all.

CR: That's right, I, for one never do.

SE: You have to think and concentrate when you breathe to play a wind instrument!!

CR: Whoops! I thought that's what was meant by the previous statement. But actually SE was referring to everyday breathing to stay alive. Then I have to say FALSE again. Or 99% false. It really doesn't require a great deal of transcendental meditation to take a breath for an upcoming phrase, even if you're sight reading. If I've had a chance to go through a chart then I might make some breath markings. No biggie here. But "think and concentrate," Come on! What's the problem? I don't think so.

SE: Now that you have taken in air and have formed your embouchure, try playing the loudest note possible. To play louder, you have to use more air. Make sense?

CR: Yes. This is extremely intuitive so far.


SE: It should, but that's not the whole story..... Since there is only one way to breathe in, isn't there only one way to breathe out?

CR: In the context of the way "breathe in" was used, the answer is yes. There is only one way for the air to go out. It gets exhaled thru the mouth or nose, but usually just thru the mouth in trumpet playing.

SE: Well, yes and no. When playing the trumpet, you know how versatile you can be by playing louder, softer, higher, lower, or any combination of these. How can this be if air simply comes in and goes
out? Well, it was stated earlier that what you do with the air inspired is of utmost importance. When you played that loud note earlier, what would have happened if you used a little more air?

CR: Let's hear it.

SE: That's right, you would have played a higher note.

CR: FALSE. Not necessarily so. The note might have just been louder.

SE: Let's figure this out. When you play a note, your aperture (the little hole that air goes through to vibrate the inner part of your lips when you play) should only vary slightly.

CR: If I use a ring visualizer, I observe that the aperture gets considerably smaller as the pitch goes up, Apparently SE is playing differently.

SE: If you don't change the size of that hole and you use more air, that air becomes
faster air. Let's look at your ordinary garden hose for comparison.

CR: Not a good comparison.

SE: When you cut on the water with your garden hose attached, the water may travel 3 or 4 feet out. If you were to attach an open nozzle with a much smaller diameter, the water shoots out much farther. Now, think about playing the trumpet using your air in the same way the water travels out of the hose. When you cut the water all the way up (force out as much air as possible), the water travels the greatest distance (your range ascends).

CR: FALSE. The analogy with the garden hose becomes totally inapplicable at this point. Do to the total dissimilarity between the garden hose nozzle and the lips, any further comparisons between the two becomes fraudulent and insulting. The nozzle on the end of the garden hose is metal. It is capable of maintaining any aperture size regardless of the amount of water pressure that is forced through it. The lips are soft tissue that do not have a whole lot of real strength. They are a very dynamic and complex system. The biggest dissimilarity between the lips and the garden hose nozzle is that the garden hose nozzle is not vibrating. The lips vibrate. Which means that they open and close 440 times a second to produce a middle A. The amplitude of this vibration is also subject to change to accommodate different dynamic levels. The garden hose nozzle just sits there, rigidly open to a specific diameter and oblivious to the forces being applied to it by the water.

Some analogy! The lips and a garden hose nozzle!

Since the two objects are totally different, the lips and the nozzle, no logical or rational comparisons can be made about the manner in which they act when subjected to a fluid or gas. If there IS no comparison then there can be NO meaningful conclusions drawn between the way the two respond to external forces, fluid, gas or otherwise. Any attempt at doing so is specious and should be dismissed as the product of an agenda to deceive. If there is no analogy than there is no comparison.

SE: Think of each note that you play having it's own little 'level' or stair. When you play a constant, steady note, you are on a certain level. If you keep using more and more air without changing the size of your aperture, you hop up to the next stair or the next higher note

CR: TRUE

SE: When you use more and more air, your note gets louder and louder until
the breaking poinit (next partial note up).

CR: What is the difference between using more and more and blowing faster and faster?

SE: If you use less and less air, the note gets softer and softer and eventually hops down.

CR: What is the difference between using less and less and blowing slower and slower?

SE: ...........If you close the aperture slightly (much like the aperture of a camera or the iris of your eye increasing and decreasing the pupillary space to regulate the amount of light hitting the lens), less faster air will travel through creating a softer high note.

CR: FALSE. Using less air to get the job done is the sign of an efficient embouchure. Everyone must have seen the good player who can easily play louder than the less efficient player who seems to be blowing his brains out but doesn't have nearly the power or projection of the good player. My personal experience shows that "Less faster air" will NOT play a note softer, but, in fact, will play the note at the same volume level, just easier.

In total, I have found 9 statements in this essay that I believe, as written, are totally false, another 3 that are unclear or ambiguous and 2 that insult the intelligence of the reader by their elaboration.
________________
Charles Raymond






[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-04 17:51 ]

[William Bentley]

Sheer brilliance Bugleboy. You are in the top 5 of most informative and accurate posters on this web site!
Keep up the good work Charles you are great.

WB

[histrumpet]

Yea,
I guess the hose analogy won't hold water. Great post Charly!

[Nicholas Dyson]

diggin it da most! Very well thought out, and amazingly coherent and well articulated. Thank you.

Like I said above, Scotty is an absolute monster of a player, but I'm guessing he's never had to put much thought into what he's doing to play the horn. Lucky man!!!
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[_bugleboy]

More TPIN from Dave Bacon. And more of someone else's thoughts on a particular subject. This time it's Tim Hutton.

TH: When playing the trumpet many players actually use too little air. It is necessary to strike a balance among air volume, air speed, sound volume, tone, and range. This is done by controlling the amount of air you supply at the lip aperture and by controlling the size of the aperture.

CR: How is the aperture size actually controlled? This is never addressed in this essay, but, just for reference, the answer is the facial muscles. Also, what is the difference between air volume and air speed?

TH: Playing low requires a more relaxed aperture with a relatively large volume of slow air.

CR: FALSE. Playing a low F# ppp requires very little air. So, similar to the Scott Englebright essay and in keeping with the dbacon philosophy of ambiguity, it appears that this Tim Hutton essay is going to be another example of equivocation. If TH meant that it takes more air to play low at the same volume as in the middle register than he should have said that.

TH: As you go higher you need to increase the air speed, reduce the aperture (to reduce the vibrating area of the lips), and increase the speed or the air.

CR: FALSE. I am able to go higher without increasing the air speed. Is there some difference between "increase the air speed" and "increase the speed or (sic) the air?"

TH: I think many players simply close down the aperture which reduces the volume of air flowing.

CR: My unabridged dictionary defines the term "close down" to mean "terminate the operation of" or "discontinue." If the aperture is discontinued the air flow would stop! This would certainly be a reduction in the volume of air flowing. Going from something to nothing is definitely a reduction. Did TH mean to be so puerile or did he mean to say something else? I don't know.

TH: I believe that, in order to make playing the higher notes easier, you must increase both the volume and speed of the air in order to support the embouchure properly.

CR: Again and again the question becomes, what is the difference between air volume and air speed? TH states what he believes, but appears to have no concern for demonstrating that what he believes has any connection to reality.

TH: Air speed is controlled by the volume of air being pushed through the aperture and the aperture size. The smaller the aperture, the higher the air speed.

CR: FALSE. I, and many others, can blow the air slowly with a very small aperture. I do this when I want to play high notes softly.

TH: So, use more air and in order for it all to get through the opening, it has to go faster.

Analogy with a garden hose works for me. If you turn on .......(snip)............ will squirt out much father. For the same opening size, the water has to move faster to get through the opening if the volume is high. Without sufficient air volume, the aperture has to be small to obtain sufficient air velocity.

CR: Again, there are two terms "air volume" and "air velocity" that have not been differentiated. These are crucial terms in this essay and the precise way that the author is using them is critical for any kind of comprehension. If one wished to challenge the content of this essay, knowing the precise difference between "air volume" and "air velocity" would be essential.

If air is blown thru the lips it travels at a certain speed. Speed is measured in distance per time. It could be inches per second. The air stream that is blown thru the lips is 3 dimensional, similar to water that exits a garden hose under pressure.

Think of filling a bucket with the water exiting a garden hose. Over a given period of time a certain volume of water will be in the bucket. Volume is measured in cubic increments. It could be cubic inches. Let's say that the speed that the water is exiting the hose is cubic inch per second. The volume of the water expelled would also be one cubic inch per second, since the water in the hose is essentially a 3 dimensional column. The relationship between fluid speed and volume of fluid that has passed a certain check point per unit of time is that they are the same thing, just said two different ways. In other words, The water in the bucket can be precisely represented by the speed at which it exits the garden hose.

The same scenario would apply to sound production on the trumpet. Air volume only makes sense if it refers to air that has been expelled thru the lips (as in the water in the bucket). The speed of the air thru the lips is volume of air per second, i.e., one cubic increment per second.

Therefore the air speed and air volume used in playing are exactly the same thing: cubic inches of air per second. The more efficient that an embouchure is, the less air volume that is needed to play. The less efficient that an embouchure is, the more air that is needed for the exact same piece of music. Player A and player B may play the same piece of music at the same volume and tempo. Player A uses less air to achieve this than does player B. Why? Efficiency.

TH: (Without sufficient air volume, the aperture has to be small to obtain sufficient air velocity.) This leads to a weak sound since less of the lips are vibrating.

CR: FALSE. Less of the lips vibrating does not lead to a weaker sound for me.

TH: I like to start at about the top of the staff .......(snip)........... If you increase air speed and then send it into a chamber (the rest of the oral cavity) that is larger, the speed decreases. Then at the lips, it increases again.

CR: Does this sentence have any sense of reality to it? Am I to believe that TH is suggesting that air starts accelerating someplace prior to the oral cavity, enters the oral cavity at a certain speed, slows down in the oral cavity and then speeds up again at the lips before exiting? In other words, there are THREE different speeds of the air going on simultaneously in the body when one is playing the trumpet.

1. Someplace prior to the oral cavity (presumably in the lungs)
2. The oral cavity
3. The lips

Now that's some real commotion going on! It would be interesting to know how Tim Hutton and Dave Bacon have arrived at such a preposterous sound production model.
________________
Charles Raymond


[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-04 18:14 ]

[dbacon]

DB

[_bugleboy]

DB: For high range, just use good air flow, with ease of middle and low registers.

CR: FALSE. If I just blow air with a completely relaxed embouchure, no tension whatsoever, not only do I not get a high range, I don't get anything except a good air flow thru the horn.

DB: To get a big sound, it is imperative that the air flow (or movement) is greater.

CR: Greater than what?

DR: The pressure of air flow is not what creates the big sound, it is much the same as violin, which creates a bigger sound when the bow is moved faster across the strings then from pressure on the strings.

CR: Does bigger mean louder or does it include louder in its meaning. Big sound means different things to different people. Not very good terminology if precision and clarity are the goals of the analysis.



[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-08-04 19:02 ]

[dbacon]

DB

[Nicholas Dyson]

who's Bud Codispoti?
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[dbacon]

DB

[Nicholas Dyson]

oh, cool. I take it he is a trumpeter or a 'groupie' (he he) here in Seattle? I'm still VERY new to town, and always looking to meet new and interesting folks.

Just as an aside, Greg Lyons has extremely good high chops, and a great sound in all registers. All that on top of being an EXTREMELY nice guy. I missed the 'Wayne Show', as I was out of town on a gig. Bummer... hopefully next time.
_________________
Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada

[dbacon]

DB