e-flat in Haydn Concerto!

[DaveH]

The high Eb is in the first movement at the end of a sixteenth note run, if my memory is correct? (Haven't seen the music for quite a while.)

[davidquinlan]

sounds mad but probably worth a try...

Try transposing (to play on Bb trumpet) the whole phrase up a tone and practicing this for a while? other alternatives would be transposing down, maybe starting a third lower, then increase by a semi-tone each time.
The emphasis being on breathing and support and accuracy.. you eventually should get used to the 'feel' of playing the phrase in any key. This will also take the focus away from the high Eb for a while....

just an idea?


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David Quinlan

[ This Message was edited by: davidquinlan on 2002-08-14 11:45 ]

[Strawdoggy]

Hi Geek,

I agree with a441's comments concerning the Eb usage vs. Bb.

I have played that solo with orchestra and, of course, did it on my Eb tpt. It doesn't make the higher notes any easier, but it does "lock them in" if you have them in the first place. Also, it is a lighter sounding horn. It will make some of the runs easier as well.

I also did a HS solo clinic where the District solo that year was the Haydn. I performed it for the audience on the Eb, but gave the clinic on the Bb. Hey, I didn't have an Eb trumpet when I was in High School , either!

Anyway, to answer your question from my perspective -

The note IS important in that it demonstrates your sound in the upper register. If I were judging, I would prefer that you didn't take it down. Sure, you might miss the Eb, but if you take the whole thing down, I wouldn't know what your range limitations were. If you missed the Eb, but got a nice sound on the D just before it, I would think - hey, this player has a decent upper register, maybe he just blew the Eb. If you took the entire thing down, I might think you had nothing above a C.

Like a few other posters said - don't make the focus of the piece the Eb. It will get you worrying too much.

Steve

[PC]

Hello everybody!

I played the Haydn last year. I chose to play it on my Schilke Eb rather than on Bb for the reasons given here: nicer, lighter solo sound and evidently easier runs. It is true though that the second mvt. lies much better on the Bb, but it is not too hard to make it musical and in tune on the Eb, especially with 4 valves.

If you do the 3rd mvt. at a rather lively tempo as I chose to, then double tonguing most of the runs/arpeggios is really easier on the short horn. Call it cheating if you want, but in the end, if you do have the choice, the audience will appreciate the performance which sounds lightest and easiest vs. a good but slightly strained one.

As for the high Eb in the first mvt. I don't find that it comes any easier on the Eb trumpet. As a matter of fact, I tried practicing the piece on my rotary Bb and I can make it full and sweet just as on my Eb. But the run around high C just before requires much more work on the Bb.

My take on that high note was to have as much as 100% success rate when practising as possible, a few times in a row, so that it lost its special status of trouble spot. The idea is that if you can nail it musically any time, it will sound good in concert without you straining unnecessarily to play the note, which will make it stand out too much. Make full use of the breath before the run (opportunity to peel the trumpet away for a fraction of a second) and start the F at a mp level, crescendoing as you run up the scale. When practising, make sure you're not overdoing things by tightening too much the lips - resulting in a big clam on the Eb. It is actually very nice of Haydn to have written that scale going up, that's the easiest way to play that note (compare to Prokoffiev's Romeo & Juliet where you have the trumpet blasting a high D out of nowhere).

Well, in the end, at the concert I got all the correct notes in, but insisted on playing a rather lengthy (and probably boring) cadenza I had worked out, a la Wynton Andre, incorporating pedal notes and an arpeggio to high F, as someone suggested here. I had worried quite a bit about the high F in practising so that came out rather OK, but the pedals were not really definable in pitch, as I was way too unfamiliar with them on the Eb, and we almost never rehearsed the full cadenza with the orchestra! So it must have sounded as if I suddenly lost control of my embouchure and could not play anymore, the audience hearing som weird rumblings in the tuba range, with me shortly reemerging into normal range and sound! I will definitely either woodshed more this cadenza if there is a next time or come up with something more playable at my level!

Regards,
Pierre.

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2002-08-15 04:26 ]

[ByroTrumpet]

In My Opinion,

whether you play the haydn on Bb or Eb is a matter of what sound you want to create.

A Bb trumpet will sound quite heavy and dark which some people like in order to demonstrate their power and control. eg. Sergei Nakariakov.

An Eb trumpet would sound much lighter and bouncier than a Bb trumpet which if used right can show more effortless execution as well as more finesse throughout all the intricate sections. A good recording is Gerard Schwarz. The whole piece sounds effortless and light and blends in with the orchestra quite nicely.

In my humble opinion, I think we should make it a personal preference, we're all trying to enjoy music ourselves. We first have to think about pleasing ourselves instead of other people, since we are our hardest critic. So if you have the luxary of playing it on both Bb and Eb pick which one you think sounds better and go with it, because they're both perfectly acceptable.

my two cents worth,
_________________
Byron

If there is anything that I stated here that someone doesn't agree with or if it is just plain wrong. Let me know (be professional about it), because I want to learn more. Have a great day everyone!

[DaveH]

I think it is also a good idea to consider the possible intentions of the composer as well.What sound do I think the composer had in mind in writing the piece?

[ This Message was edited by: DaveH on 2002-08-15 10:49 ]

[JGulyas]

[Murray]

Actually, the Haydn Concerto was written for a new invention at the time, the keyed trumpet! A trumpet player by the name of Weidinger is credited with developing this instrument, and learning how to play it. This instrument was invented just before the valve. Haydn wrote the concerto especially for Mr. Weidinger and his new fangled keyed trumpet. Wonder if he had trouble with the high Eb?

[davidquinlan]

I've heard the English trumpet player, Crispian Steele-perkins play an extract from the Haydn and other music on a reproduction keyed trumpet.... really different sound...

visit his website...

http://www.crispiansteele-perkins.com/
_________________
David Quinlan

[ZeroMan]

Weidinger's instrument was pitched in Eb *lower* than the modern valve trumpet in Bb.

The keyed trumpet also has a darker tone than its modern counterparts, and is especially more heavier souding than the smaller soprano trumpets.

The Hummel was also written for Weidinger, and for that piece he used another keyed trumpet in low-E.

Besides the recording by Steele-Perkins, one can also hear the keyed trumpet on a recording of 3 Haydn Concertos by the English Concert, with Mark Bennett playing the solo part in the trumpet concerto.

Reinhold Freidlich (sp) also made a recording of the Haydn, Hummel and Puccini (the classical-era minor composer, not the famous opera composer) on the keyed trumpet.

I have yet to tackle any of those concertos, but as an enthusiastic music fan, I can say that the most important thing is to play in the style Haydn was intending. Triumphantly classical in the first movement, singing (bel canto) in the second movement, etc.

If you want the "totally accurate" sound, go with the keyed trumpet- but then you will have to make sure the orchestra is also playing on the appropriate instruments (natural horns and trumpets, period woodwinds and strings and a continuo) because modern instruments can overwhelm the softer sound of the keyed trumpet. It also delves into the realm of historically informed performances with all of its limitations and trappings. IMO, Haydn would have been impressed with the sound of the modern orchestra, once he got over everyone playing too sharp by his ears.

As a guy who does far more listening than playing, it's more important to capture the style and feeling appropriate to the music than worry about what equipment you want to use.

[ This Message was edited by: ZeroMan on 2002-08-16 03:43 ]

[Trptbenge]

Last year in Athens Georgia at the Brass Quintet competition they had several guest artists/groups. One of them was the Art of Brass-Vienna. Both of the Trumpet players - Heinrich Bruckner and Hans Gansch (former Principal with the Vienna Symphony) said that the Hadyn is still played in Europe primarily on the B flat piston valve trumpet and not the rotary.

[6pk]

this talk is all crazy.. You can play the haydn on whatever you want (when its a recital) and frankly any attitude; that says playing it on an Eb is wimping out, is massively amateur. If you can play thenote then you should beable to play it on any instrument. I personnally think the haydn sounds more appropriate in the context of the piece on an Eb trumpet (considering it was originally written for keyed E/Eb trumpet) for me the german Bb sounds too heavy.. but then a good player can make a great sound whatever they play it on.. I can see why orchestras ask for it on Bb but they just want to hear the control with the musicality. I've seen people get jobs and miss the Eb. with regards to owning an Eb flat I would have said in britain and quite a lot of european countries you would be expected to own one.

[ This Message was edited by: 6pk on 2002-08-24 16:08 ]

[ This Message was edited by: 6pk on 2002-08-24 16:13 ]

[Andrew]

I had the privilege of seeing Phil Smith perform the Haydn-he played it on Eb.

Because Phil Smith is such an incredibly nice person, I was actually able to talk to him after the performance, and I asked him about playing it on Bb vs. Eb. He said that he does both-and that it's worthwhile to know on Bb, Eb, C, and as many keys as possible. He mentioned he was planning on playing the performance on Bb (it was a matinee), but went with the Eb for endurance reasons. He wrote his own cadenzas, and based on my ear, I think he played the equivalent of a double G on Bb 3 times in the cadenza.

I think the Eb is a fairly integral part of the piece, but not the most important-keeping the right style, and having a good sound throughout the piece, especially the 2nd movement take higher preference than being able to play 3 ledger lines above the staff, IMO

[AccentOnTrumpet]

It is a challenging passage, but I almost always got it because I would just take a huge breath on the last phrase and get the compression going and pop it out. It's not the most important part of the piece though. If you missed it, it wouldn't mean you played it badly or anything. It's just important to be able to get that note because when you get it, it really shows people you have some command over your instrument. The main problem I had with the Haydn concerto was playing the high notes with the same tone as the lower and middle register notes. Sometimes I would play them too loudly (and sometimes I still do but hey I'm working on it). When I played it at the State Solo And Ensemble in Livonia, the judge even told me "You are a very talented trumpet player but always remember never play louder than lovely". So that's my main problem with the piece. Any suggestions on how to play the notes a bit softer and still making them sound good?

Also, at the end of the third movement of the Haydn, a nice alternate ending that I prefer to use is instead of play low F and tonguing it over and over again, do the low F to low C thing and then double tongue F, G, A, middle C, middle F, G twice and then play A down to middle F and play it like it's written but just with middle F. It's difficult to describe this really, but if you can make out what I said try it, a teacher I had who primarily plays classical recommended that alternate ending and it's a lot smoother than the original that Haydn wrote (no disrespect) and ends it nicely.

[alixross]

I know it's hard, but don't think about the note too much. I always used to do this and as a result ended up panicking, putting less air through and squeezing the note out, (if it came out at all). I think the best thing to do with this particular phrase is to concentrate on keeping the air moving and not the actual e flat itself. If you do this 9 times out of 10 the note will come out anyway!

[trombapaul2]

The Haydn played on a Bb Rotary is a wonderful experience . That horn produces a beautiful sound for that piece, almost as if Mr. Haydn wanted that sound. Yes, the 16ths are slightly more difficult but why shy away from a good challenge. I've performed the piece twice now on the Rotary and I've gotten some wonderful comments on the sound from other trumpeters. If you're using the horn correctly, the high Eb is not that difficult. The right way to play the upper register on a Rotary is to open the water key (should have an extra long key) while using the normal fingerings. Some makers put on a second key specifically for help in the upper. It's on a different part of the horn so when you open it, it doesn't dribble on your shoes. Even on an Eb, it's very easy to choke off the note before you get there if you're over-dwelling on it. Just relax, keep the air moving, and let it sing!

Paul
_________________
"NEVER practice...ALWAYS perform" (Bud)

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[GordonH]

Hello
If you play it on an Eb trumpet you will need to pull the low notes at the end of the third movement up an octave (unlessz you have a 4 valve Eb).

I would honestly say that if you cant play it on a Bb you wont be able to play it on an Eb.
I performed it last a few years ago after selling my Eb to pay a bill.
I did it on Bb and it sounded much better.
Closer to the sound of a keyed trumpet (try and listen to the Friedman Immer CD of him doing it on a reproduction instrument).

Gordon


Edit: Just to clarify, the low notes I am referring to only appear in the "correct" version form original manuscript, not in most of the published versions.

[ This Message was edited by: GordonH on 2002-11-25 06:06 ]